When does D&D stop being D&D?

[PinkRose]

Campbell, then why did you answer? This wasn't a question about the quality of D&D. It was a question about what makes D&D D&D. This doesn't seem to be the discussion for you.

@noobdragon, I don't understand what that has to do with the topic. What makes the game D&D the game we know, is the question.

Could a version of D&D be made without elves or rangers?

 

[Remathilis]

I think there is a deep desire to "fix" those nagging problems that have haunted D&D since inception. Turning AC into damage reduction and not hit avoidance. Fixing HP for more realistic wounding. Replacing Vanician casting (again). Balancing all classes to contribute evenly. I doubt any of this is going to happen. D&DN is about finding the common threads and classic systems of all D&D, even if a "better" system out there. And that's a good thing. D&D has its own style, and to have it try to emulate another is another failure waiting to happen.

There is room to grow, there is room to innovate, and there is room to expand. I just think the core units (HP, AC, Ability scores, alignment) must stay and be recognizable. Otherwise, "Ze game is NOT the same".

 

[PinkRose]

D&DN is about finding the common threads and classic systems of all D&D, even if a "better" system out there. And that's a good thing. D&D has its own style...

This is absolutely what I'm looking for.
I read some threads and I think, "What a horrid idea!"
Other threads I read and think, "WOW! How has no one implemented that before?" But neither would help D&D feel like D&D.

 

[SKyOdin]

Great replies. Thanks so far.
I missed ability scores in my list of what makes D&D.

And SkyOdin, I particularly liked your statement.
but don't you think it takes more than that? Aren't there quite a few games that are fantasy race/class/levels?

Yes, but those tend to fundamentally be D&D clones, or a game with strong roots in D&D. If I wanted to create a game that isn't a D&D clone, the first thing I would do was challenge the race/class/level assumption. For example, I would go to a skill-based system, or eliminate race in favor of something more free-form. For example, HERO system or FATE are unmistakably different from D&D because they changed that core structure. Similarly, Final Fantasy games where characters can freely swap back and forth between jobs (FF classes) are obviously different than D&D.

EDIT: For the record, I don't think something like "the feel of D&D" exists. That is a purely subjective quality that is undefinable, since I doubt any two people can agree on what it is.

 

[The Choice]

I break down what is D&D into X large groups:

1) The game itself: d20 to hit, weapons that deal different dices in damages, elves, dwarves, halflings, fighters, wizards, clerics, rogues, spells, levels and a tight, efficient tactical combat system, AC and other defences.

2) The fiction: a fantasy world that borrows and emulates some of our own cultures of the past, present and, sometimes, future. Roaming monsters, mysterious lairs, cities full of intrigue, and old abandonned ruins. The PCs are heroes within this setting (at least more often than not)

3) The "meta" element : being with friends around a table and telling a story together, immersing myself into a role that fits an archetype or that I can customize to suit my particular desires and whims. Being able, as a DM, to tell either epic, sweeping sagas or focus on character pieces and drama.

Any game that possesses most of these elements is D&D (at least to me it is).

So, to me again, D&D stops being D&D when it becomes a parody of those elements, or when emphasis is put on some ancillary element that throws the game out of whack for the sake of tradition.

 

[Elf Witch]

What makes DnD, DnD for me.

The six abilities rolled not in order but at least rolled so everyone is different and sometimes you get outstanding characters and sometimes you don't.

Magic divided by arcane and divine and spell slots that are from 1 to 9 for wizards.

Paladins as lawful good holy warriors anything else is some kind of holy avenger or anti paladin.

Classes and multiclassing as well as a variety of races and yes I like half races.

The ability of clerics and druids to bring back the dead. As well as necromancers and their hoards of undead.

Bad things can happen to the PCs you can get paralyzed, dead, held ,made to sleep, take level loss and what can happen to an NPC can happen to the PC. Rust monsters can eat your equipment.

Powerful wizards at high level should be powerful and scary.

Most of all I like the wacky way DnD can be used to combine all kinds if fantasy.

 

[Libramarian]

Why do people want to change things? Because everyone's view of what is D&D is slightly different, and everyone thinks that changing a few things would make it their own personal Platonic ideal of what D&D is. Everyone has something where they think 'this doesn't fit with what D&D is'. These attempts at changing the core of the game are just attempts at making D&D more perfectly D&D-like, for varying personal values of what is D&D.

This isn't true. Campbell, for example, doesn't care about D&D as such.

It's honestly not a question I'm too interested in the answer to. I don't judge a game based on fidelity to its precursors. I judge it based on its ability to deliver a worthwhile play experience. Of course I also like Mongoose Runequest but not Classic Runequest, and New World of Darkness but not classic Vampire.

I've seen others express a similar outlook. They don't care about D&D as a brand or tradition, they're just here to argue for D&D to become more like their preferred sort of game. I suspect that they're doing that here, instead of on some other game forum, simply because D&D is the most popular RPG, and they want that fanbase for their preferred game. I've noticed that they tend to think it's nothing more than a historical fluke that D&D is the most popular RPG, and that if anything D&D would be even more popular if it were radically changed in premise and mechanics. To me that's a strange and unsupported assumption. I'm pretty sure the reason for D&D's absolute dominance of the field of RPGs for the entire history of the field of RPGs has something to do with its design as a game.

Anyway for me D&D's hallmark and greatest invention is The Dungeon. If you spend too much time out of the dungeon (or dungeon-like wilderness or urban analogue) you're not really playing D&D anymore imo, and would probably be better served by a different fantasy game (the smaller fanbase being the snag).

 

[PinkRose]

SkyOdin says "For the record, I don't think something like "the feel of D&D" exists. That is a purely subjective quality that is undefinable, since I doubt any two people can agree on what it is."
I agree. At most 5 people have the same view of D&D (one table) but even then those will have different wants within that allowed set of rules and house rules.

What I'm looking for is not comparing each person's game to each other person', but maybe taking 100 random ENers and finding out which things hit 50% at least. How many like Vancian, how many like Lawful Good, how many like HP? With that, you could get a majority consensus of what D&D is.

@Libramarian , the Dungeon as explained by you is a great piece of D&D. I agree, and I often see those that try to remove it (in favor of 98% Interaction or some such) and then complain that D&D doesn't work for them. Those are the people that I think would be better served with another, just as good, but different, RPG.

 

[Stormonu]

This is my list of things I consider "D&D". You don't need all of it (Basic still D&D despite only having 3 alignments) but I think going forward its what any D&D game should have.

Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma
Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Halfling, Human, Half-elf
Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Bard, Paladin, Druid, Ranger
Lawful, Good, Chaotic, Evil and Neutral
Vancian Magic (spell slots, 1-9th level)
Armor Class, Hit Points, Saving Throws
Turn Undead
Cure Light Wounds, Fireball, Magic Missile, Teleport, Raise Dead, Protection from Evil
Goblinoids, Kobolds, Orcs, Undead, Multi-colored Dragons, Beholders, Drow, Mindflayers, and Fiends
Longswords, Platemail, 10' poles, torches, greataxes, studded leather, and lots and lots of rope.
+1 weapons, potions of healing, rings of protection, cursed items, and intelligent blades

This and...

Goblins, Orcs, Kobolds, Gnolls, Liches, Elementals, Drow, Demons/Devils/Daemons, Beholders and Dragons. The enemies of adventurers everywhere. Because they are evhal.
Platinum piece, Gold piece, Silver Piece, Copper Piece. And the return of Electrum would be nice.

 

[Fifth Element]

Short list. The six ability scores, hit points, Armour Class. The four basic classes. Elves and dwarves.

That's about it for me.