When does multiclassing become excessive?

Given the restrictive nature of character classes, I'd say that you should take as many as necessary in order to best approximate your character concept.

Example: a dwarven warrior/poet whose chants inspire his comrades to acts of greatness, but who sometimes loses himself to the emotional frenzy lurking within, and who balances his passions with discipline and training might be a Bard/Barbarian/Fighter.

As long as it passes the laugh test (does your GM laugh at you when you explain your character), it should be OK.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

side note...

takyris said:
Fighter2/Barbarian1/Ranger1/Rogue(rest of way) -- with a decent backstory to justify it.

Of course, my campaign uses fractional BAB and Save calculation, so she only had a decent Fort save, not a great one, and her Will save wasn't as lousy as it might otherwise have been.

-Tacky

PS: Fractional BAB/Save, IMC, means that a Cleric1/Druid1/Monk1 has a BAB of (0.75 x 3 = ) +2 and a Base Will Save of (3 levels of Will Good = ) +3, as opposed to a BAB of +0 and a Base Will Save of +6. Playing by those kinds of rules makes the multiclassing a whole lot more reasonable.

do you have this whole system worked out for the fractional bab/saves, and if you do could you email me what you have? It sounds really interesting and something I would like.

:cool:
 

multiclassing

Quickbeam said:
I've never played a quad class character, so you may not want me to say when I think multiclassing is too excessive :p.

Seriously, I think that multiclassing is fine if it fits with the character's history and development. However, I loathe the idea of multiclassing (regardless of how many levels are taken) simply for the benefits provided. At its root, we all can be said to multiclass for extra abilities and powers...but the players who never even try to make a viable rationale for these class progressions drive me nuts!! Please forgive the holier than thou preachiness herein. I'm better now :D.

No matter what anybody says, anyone who multiclasses does so for the benifits that they think they will get period. Some players can "rationalize" or "justify" better then others thats all. that was one thing I rally liked about a low level champoins game (50 pt characters). everyone starts out exactly the same and you build your character however you like (with the GM's approval) multiclassing in 3e does the same thing, just not as well IMO.
If you multiclass as a whole you are weaker in some areas but stronger in others and players should have the CHOICE to customizetheir characters however they see fit (again with the DM's approval). you only get so meny skills/feats/levels and the more you mlticlass the more "watered down" that your character becomes. if the player is ok with that then IMO there's not a problem.

As a DM if you want to make multiclassing less common then require your players to actually train for each class (a year or more for a mage/priest or other spellcaster or several months for a rogue or fighter) I can gurentee that this will slow down multiclassing in your game.
 

aftre the first one.

Seriously tho- how many DMs let their pl;ayers MC freely? and all willy Nilly? IMC, most are single, with the occasional MC for emphasis and specialization.

And don't get me started on PRC... how many of those is too much?
;)
 

As for the formulae I use, Gez pretty much nailed it. It's great for making a multiclass character more like the single-classed characters, in terms of not having that randomly huge Fort or Will save. You don't really need any charts, once you've got the formulas memorized:

(quick explanation)
Look at a Bard8/Cleric4/Wizard2 -- 14 levels total.

He's got 14 levels of Will Good, since all classes have the good Will progression

He's got 8 levels of Reflex Good and 6 levels of Reflex Poor, since the Bard gets Reflex Good and the Wizard and Cleric don't

He's got 4 levels of Fortitude Good and 10 levels of Fortitude Poor, since only the Cleric gets Fortitude Good

That means that his saves are:

Will: 14/2 +2 = +9 (just like the Will save of any single-classed 14th level character with Will Good)

Reflex: 8/2 +2 +6/3 = 4+2+2 = +8

Fortitude: 4/2 +2 + 10/3 = 2+2+3 = +7

His Base attack bonus would be

(12 x 3/4) + (2 x 1/2) = 9+1 = +10/+5

In terms of what I allow as a DM, I'm fine with people multiclassing as they like, as long as they have a way to justify it. The general rule of thumb is, "Can you tell me how your character got this new knowledge?" If they want to level rogue, they can tell me how much they've been sneaking around as a fighter. If they want to level cleric, they can tell me how they've started getting more fervent in their prayers to the god of righteous combat, and maybe he's started answering... and so forth. If a party has a wizard, it's reasonable for him to teach other people the wizardly arts.

I'm a bit sterner on things like monk, but again, if they can justify it, I'm fine.

-Tacky
 

Re: multiclassing

One might equally say that anybody who levels up at all "does so for the benefits they think they will get period." Why should the Rog 5 become a Rog 6? Why not a Rog 5/Com 1? So what's the difference between adding levels in the same class and multiclassing? Multiclassing enables a player to create a character who has a more unique set of skills and abilities, that's the difference.

A young, illiterate warrior of the bloodline of the gods who manifests his ancestor's rage at injustice but whose later actions allow the deaths of thousands and who becomes a wanderer, devoting himself to the goddess of suffering and healing in order to heal the suffering he cannot prevent and prevent the suffering he can prevent: Val Tensen (Arcanis race) Bbn 2/Ftr 1/Clr 2 (domains: Healing and Travel).

How about the cursed scion of ancient nobility who still defends the (now partially overrun) territories of his ancestors? As he begins his quest, he is rustic warrior granted a few powers by the goddess of his foster family but gradually becomes a leader of men and eventually a Knight who breaks the curse and restores the kingdom of his ancestors.
Rgr 1/Clr 3 (Mayaheine--War and Good)/Pal 2. . . . Knight Protector

The advantage of using multiclassing (and prestige classes) rather than class customization to accomplish these concepts mechanically is that multiclassing allows the character to develop throughout the story instead of having his life planned out from the beginning. The first character had no particular religious inclinations at first--in fact, it wasn't until his third level that his dramatic failure as a protector prompted him to become a healer as well. The second character might well have begun his career with no ambitions to go beyond the life of a leader of woodland warriors. His goddess, however, chose him for different things and eventually he became an entirely different sort of man than he'd anticipated: a ruler and an armored knight--a commander of armies rather than a guerilla fighter.

As to power--is the end result of the first character significantly more powerful than one of the "accepted" multiclasses? How about Fighter/Cleric? Fighter/Weaponmaster? Fighter/Sorceror? Or just a plain old Fighter or Barbarian? Not really. He'll have strengths and weaknesses vis a vis all of these characters.

Is the second character stronger than a Paladin/Templar? How about a Fighter/Cavalier? Or a Windrider? Not necessarily. How strong either character is will depend upon how efficiently they're constructed not the level of multi-classing that went into them.

Sanackranib said:
No matter what anybody says, anyone who multiclasses does so for the benifits that they think they will get period. Some players can "rationalize" or "justify" better then others thats all. that was one thing I rally liked about a low level champoins game (50 pt characters). everyone starts out exactly the same and you build your character however you like (with the GM's approval) multiclassing in 3e does the same thing, just not as well IMO.
If you multiclass as a whole you are weaker in some areas but stronger in others and players should have the CHOICE to customizetheir characters however they see fit (again with the DM's approval). you only get so meny skills/feats/levels and the more you mlticlass the more "watered down" that your character becomes. if the player is ok with that then IMO there's not a problem.

As a DM if you want to make multiclassing less common then require your players to actually train for each class (a year or more for a mage/priest or other spellcaster or several months for a rogue or fighter) I can gurentee that this will slow down multiclassing in your game.
 

For my next campaign (frequent posters an lurkers are probably getting tired of hearing this from me), I am going to require multiclassing for spellcasting classes, and only a feat (prerequisite: spellcaster 9th+) will get you out of it. That is one of the primary ways I will be enforcing a low-magic environment. Elimination of Craft wondrous, Craft rod, forge ring and craft magic arms and armor will do even more. Craft staff will have craft wand as a prerequisite.

I had even kicked around the idea of forcing every character to multiclass, but figured that it would PO one of my primary players, who disagrees with me on the topic of multiclassing (though not when using it to enforce low magic on spellcasters).

I will use the d20 Modern system for BAB and saves when multiclassing, though.

-Fletch!
 
Last edited:

Re: multiclassing

Sanackranib said:


No matter what anybody says, anyone who multiclasses does so for the benifits that they think they will get period.

False.

We have a sorcerous campaign going. That is, it was decided that everyone would be multiclassed sorcerers.

It was made for flavor reasons, because we found the idea fun and interesting.

Not for powergaming. We've yet to end a combat without 3/4 of the group in the negative and the remaining member at 2 hp, desperately trying to succeed his Heal check to stabilize his fellows.

Were we to play a sorcerous campaign with powergaming in mind, we'll have played straight wizards and clerics -- not multi'ed sorcerers.

Now, of course, you can say that having interesting and flavorful characters is a benefit, even if they are not much efficient otherwise.
 

My current character is a Rogue(4) wizard(6) Arcane Archer(5).
At 15th level he is two levels higher than anyone else in the group, but he doesn't fight as well as the Fighter, doesn't cast as well as the Sorcerer and isn't near as good as the rogue. I really wasn't too happy with how multiclassing came out (first time I had tried it with 3rd ed.). I have a character who is half decent at several things that characters 2 levels lower than him are better at, he's just overmatched in most fights. The fighter in the group took some levels of ranger so his character could track, it worked out pretty good for him.
 

multi-classing

its like I said earlier. you character will be more self sufficent but wont be as good at anything as a non-multiclassed character, That said, some multi class combos are better then others.
 

Remove ads

Top