When does Verisimilitude break down?

[William Ronald]

Adventuring blacksmiths do not get a lot of time to practice their craft, so allowing them to gain some experience points by facing challenges and obstacles is a reasonable way to ensure some advancement. Over time, most of us get better at our various professions. In D&D terms, an expert blacksmith could gain most of his experience by working on his craft. Slaying monsters and rescuing captives might make the blacksmith popular. However, it really does not have anything to do with his profession.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I might even rule that experience gained by killing monsters and rescuing captives cannot be spent gaining a level of commoner or expert, just as experience gained plowing fields and making horseshoes cannot be used to gain a level of wizard.

 

[mmadsen]

I have to admit, I haven't read Tolkien *gasp*.

And I have to admit, I do gasp (at least a little) every time a D&D fan says he hasn't read Tolkien. I can understand not listing him as your favorite author, but how can you ignore the most influential fantasy work out there?

But those monsters they were fighting weren't really alive, they were made out of mud or something by that white wizard guy. So they're not like humans or orcs, they're more like mindless zombies or constructs, right?

As MerakSpielman pointed out, the Uruk-Hai are, in the books, an orc-human hybrid, taller than regular orcs and able to withstand sunlight.

 

[Orius]

And I have to admit, I do gasp (at least a little) every time a D&D fan says he hasn't read Tolkien. I can understand not listing him as your favorite author, but how can you ignore the most influential fantasy work out there?

It is a little shocking. Even 10 years ago, when I started, most D&D players had read some Tolkien. It was sort of like an entry point. Now, it seems the number of D&D players who have read Tolkien has gone down. I wonder what kind of iompact the films will have on this number as well.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hong makes a great point. Personally I don't have a problem with high level characters being able to defeat thousands. I just wonder why the thousands would keep coming after the first thousand gets slaughtered. If I were in the second wave and saw a bunch of god-like beings wiping out thousands of my comrades, ain't no way I'm gonna grip my sword tighter and go charging in! I'd wonder what the heck my king was doing sending us against these guys in the first place!

That's exactly it, though - you go and take your shot at the title because the boss tells you to.

It happened to us every week on Xena or Hercules. The boss would say "Get her, boys!", and a dozen of us would run in, one or two at a time, to get beaten up... just like we did the week before, and the week before that, and the week before that.

All that changed was the costumes we wore, the boss giving the commands, and the order we got beaten up in.

Not sure why we never just said "No! What makes you think it'll be any different this time!?" But when the boss says "Get her!", you give it your best shot.

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

See, I would say that kind of guy isn't the master of his craft....he's a mook. They guy who is the master of his craft knows is craft in many more ways than the one that involves simply crafting.

The problem is that literature and comics are a medium entirely controlled by an author. The actions of these heroic characters stay in their social frameworks because the author writes them that way.

A DM playing with a bunch of unpredictable players does not have that luxury.

How not? If your PCs become villains, then heroes rise up to face them. Or you tell them "Dude - you're a hero. Quit messing around".

As far as XP for NPCs goes, obviously a replacement for the kill things and level up model needs to be found. I say give experience for story and deemphasize combat based XP. Also give experience for time and/or training. For example, if an NPC or PC practices some set of skills such as magic or even blacksmithing for a year, give them a level. So a blacksmith with 20 years of experience at the forge would be a 20th level expert and so on.

Which unfortunately makes elves level 200+. Doh. Just work out the challenges that the PC faces in that time. d20 modern has a bit about CRs for DCs, and lethal vs non-lethal threats.

My take?

The greatest blacksmith in the world goes out there looking for the secrets of great blacksmithing. Legends are full of this sort of thing - craftsmen challenging the gods, tricking their way to wisdom and the knowledge that lets them be the top of their craft.

Got a 20th level blacksmith? He's probably been adventuring for a long time. Ever since he got to level 10 and found out that no level of normal crafting could get up to a CR 2 and give him any more experience. So he seeks out ways to get better.

Or not. And stays level 10.

 

[mmadsen]

Which unfortunately makes elves level 200+. Doh.

It would be nice if the non-adventuring NPC classes didn't add hit dice and improve BAB and Saves. Then your typical elf could be a 10th-level Expert, and your dedicated farmer could be a 3rd- or 4th-level Commoner -- all without becoming an ass-kicker in the process.

 

[Desdichado]

They do the Uruk-Hai really weird in the movie. In the book, they describe them as the prodigy of goblin/orcs bred with humans. That way, they maintain the evil and ruthless nature of the goblins/orcs and gain the ability to be outside when the sun is out without penalty (like humans). He called his halfbreeds "Uruk-Hai" but I don't remember what those words mean. (I was never clear on the difference between Goblins and Orcs in Tolkein - they seem to be the same race, but Gobs live in the misty mountains and orcs live in Mordor?)

Goblins and orcs were themselves orginally elves that were twisted and perverted by Sauron to create a race of slaves that was the total opposite of everything elves stood for.

I think you mean progeny, not prodigy. Uruk-hai simply means orc-folk; the application of that term to mean specifically half-orcs is kinda odd in many ways. Goblins and orcs are the same, although as you say, goblin is more often applied to the Misty Mountains orcs. Of course, that's also because it's mostly Misty Mountains orcs in the Hobbit, where the goblin term is most used. The Misty Mountains orcs in Moria are indeed called orcs; although "black Uruks of Mordor" are amongst them.

As to whether or not they were originally elves, I think that's the biggest myth and misnomer in Tolkieniana. It irks me to know end when folks spout that like a hard fact. No offense to you, of course, MS.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I could have sword Treebeard told Merry and Pippen that orcs were twisted elves when they were in Fanghorn.... I also remember something about the trolls being twisted versions of Ents. I'd swear it's in there.

 

[Desdichado]

I could have sword Treebeard told Merry and Pippen that orcs were twisted elves when they were in Fanghorn.... I also remember something about the trolls being twisted versions of Ents. I'd swear it's in there.

I think it's in the Silmarillion -- a book cobbled together by Christopher after his death from writings as old as the teens and as late as the sixties. It was an idea Tolkien toyed with, although he was ending up with orcs being perverted and corrupted Men, not Orcs.

Treebeard did also mention something vaguely similar, to which Tolkien responded in his Letters that Treebeard was a character in the story, not the creator, and there were plenty of things that he didn't know or understand very well.