When does Verisimilitude break down?

[Celtavian]

re

I think it's in the Silmarillion -- a book cobbled together by Christopher after his death from writings as old as the teens and as late as the sixties. It was an idea Tolkien toyed with, although he was ending up with orcs being perverted and corrupted Men, not Orcs.

Treebeard did also mention something vaguely similar, to which Tolkien responded in his Letters that Treebeard was a character in the story, not the creator, and there were plenty of things that he didn't know or understand very well.

There are alot of confusing ideas about orcs. Tolkien never decided what orcs were from. There is even a debate on how long orcs lived because Shagrat and the other orc chief from the tower were supposedly hundreds, possible over a thousand, years old due to a conversation they had discussing the boss losing a previous war.

As far as I know, Tolkien wanted to publish The Simarillion, but was encouraged to continue his Hobbit story.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It would be nice if the non-adventuring NPC classes didn't add hit dice and improve BAB and Saves. Then your typical elf could be a 10th-level Expert, and your dedicated farmer could be a 3rd- or 4th-level Commoner -- all without becoming an ass-kicker in the process.

If the character is important enough to be higher level than normal, then why not make him tougher and more resilient?

Here's how it works - in any good story, the important people - the people with names, whom the story focuses on - the people who are masters of their craft, or heroes or whatever - don't just die.

They don't. They live on through all sorts of situations in which a red shirt or unnamed character would just drop dead in.

Hitpoints do that.

Besides - I'd really hate a world where elves were the best at everything just because they were old.

 

[storyguide3]

They do the Uruk-Hai really weird in the movie. In the book, they describe them as the prodigy of goblin/orcs bred with humans.

It is stated in the film (FotR, in an exchenge between Gandalf and Elrond) that they are the product of crossing "orcs and goblin-men" by some form of magic. If I remember correctly, however, they were not created by Saruman in the books, but were the work of Sauron sometime earlier in the Third Age.

 

[silentspace]

OK, so in the book those orc-things weren't made out of mud by Sarumen or Sauron or any other evil villain that starts with 'Sar/Saur' and ends in 'en/on'. So they are living, breathing creatures and not constructs or zombies.

That actually makes it worse, doesn't it? They must've been descended from the really stupid elves/humans/whatever. What the hell were they thinking? And doesn't it make Sarumen look stupid for sending a bunch of puny orcs after the fellowship?

I know, I know! Sarumen's not stupid, I'm the one who's stupid because I haven't read the darn books!

 

[Dragonblade]

The Silmarillion specifically says that the Orcs were created, by Morgoth, from the Elves who remained on Middle-Earth and did not go to the Undying Lands with the Valar.

This was before Men entered the picture.

 

[Wicht]

Joshua's point is, I think, that the Silmarillion should not be considered core LotR material as it never had Tolkien's final approval. He originally wanted to publish bits of the Silmarillion before LotR but was discouraged from doing so. How much of what was in the final Silmirillian would have been in there though if Tolkien had put it out himself is open to debate.

The theme though that evil can not create, it can only twist what has already been created, seems perfectly in line with Tolkien’s philosophy and so personally I tend to adopt the view that the ‘creation’ of the orcs by Morgoth is a reasonable assumption, but I would hate to have to prove that JRRT ultimately decided on going that route with his villianous henchmen.

 

[mmadsen]

If the character is important enough to be higher level than normal, then why not make him tougher and more resilient?

Here's how it works - in any good story, the important people - the people with names, whom the story focuses on - the people who are masters of their craft, or heroes or whatever - don't just die.

They don't. They live on through all sorts of situations in which a red shirt or unnamed character would just drop dead in.

Hitpoints do that.

Besides - I'd really hate a world where elves were the best at everything just because they were old.

I can accept that point of view -- or elements of it -- but I'd prefer to have "importance" reflected by drama points (or some mechanic along those lines).

I'd like to be able, within the rules, to have an advanced civilization of, say, elves (Atlanteans would work too) who are all amazing scholars, poets, artists, artisans, etc., but who would immediately fall in combat to the orc (or subhuman man-ape) hordes. I'd like 10th-level Experts to be amazing scholars, poets, artists, artisans, etc. without also being better warriors than the barbarian hordes.

 

[MerakSpielman]

You could make the average orc/man-ape invaders be 5th level warriors, and 16 Str/Con, and the elf/scholars 6 Str/Con...
edit: Oh, and give the invaders armor while the scholars have none... and poisoned arrows that do 1d4 Str damage or something... the elves won't last long. Especially if there are thousands of orcs and only hundreds of elves.

 

[Paul_Klein]

I can accept that point of view -- or elements of it -- but I'd prefer to have "importance" reflected by drama points (or some mechanic along those lines).

I'd like to be able, within the rules, to have an advanced civilization of, say, elves (Atlanteans would work too) who are all amazing scholars, poets, artists, artisans, etc., but who would immediately fall in combat to the orc (or subhuman man-ape) hordes. I'd like 10th-level Experts to be amazing scholars, poets, artists, artisans, etc. without also being better warriors than the barbarian hordes.

I've often wanted the exact same thing. Problem is, I can't see a way aound it without totally reworking a bunch of rules.

 

[Desdichado]

The Silmarillion specifically says that the Orcs were created, by Morgoth, from the Elves who remained on Middle-Earth and did not go to the Undying Lands with the Valar.

This was before Men entered the picture.

And as I said, the Silmarillion is a Frankenstein project cobbled together by Christopher after the death of his father. Christopher himself later regretted the presentation of the Silmarillion, which is why he later published the History of Middle-earth books which allow you to see all (well, most anyway) of Tolkien's unpublished writings in their proper context.

Which is why it's a personal pet peeve of mine when folks quote that orcs are corrupted elves, and do it with such false authority.

Also, the "quote" between Shagrat and Gorbag that "proves" the orcs are long-lived is laughable. There is absolutely nothing in that exchange of dialogue that even suggests that either of them have any direct memory of Morgoth except under the most twisted and reaching of interpretations. The suggestion that the seige they mention has to be the first age rather than the current seige going on just a little to the west of them is insane. Combined with direct quotes from Tolkien in which he stated that the lifespans of orcs are short compared to the Dunedain is the final nail in that coffin, which I'm surprised to still see opened at all.