When is a power-up a nerf? Example

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

So I'm being confronted by my own psychology. I hope it's no different than that of other gamers.

First, a little background about the issue. I'm going to take part in a Pathfinder game as a player, and intend to play a ranger/sorcerer/arcane archer. Of course, we're starting at 1st-level, so it's possibly a forlorn hope.

This is a PrC I've wanted to play since I saw it or at least make an NPC of it, but through the run of 3.x I never had the chance to do so, and now I only run 4e. (There is an arcane archer "monster" somewhere that I've seen though.)

In 3.x it was cool but not particularly powerful or well-designed. The requirements were a BAB of +5 and 1st-level arcane spellcasting abilities, so it seemed like you only needed one level of wizard or sorcerer. Or bard.

It gave abilities every level. Half of them were straight-up enhancement bonuses you didn't have to pay gold for, and the other half were (generally) daily abilities like Phasing Shot, etc.

However, it's 2nd-level ability Imbue Arrow caused grief, despite being powerful. Archery is actually longer-ranged than even long-ranged spells, if you don't mind the attack penalty. Imbue Arrow let you cast a spell at your bow's range, but there's no attack roll: the best of both worlds. The kinds of spells you could put in it would be anemic if you didn't take any more levels in arcane spellcaster. The benefits of casting, say, Sleep at long range are pointless. The save DC is low, there's a Hit Dice cap, and by the time you get to the bad guys their buddies have slapped them awake.

If I'd played this class in 3.x I wouldn't have cared. It's not unusual for a PrC to have the occasional useless ability.

However, the Pathfinder version is much more powerful. In addition to giving more hit points than a ranger (weird, this is based on a multiclass of ranger and something with fewer hit points), it also gives several levels of spellcasting ability, more than 5.

And that leaves me cold. Now I can't ignore Imbue Arrow. I'm being levels of spellcasting ability that I'm starting to think I don't actually want. I'm going to have to boost my character's Charisma score pretty high or ignore the spellcasting. Even if I don't care about the save DC, I still need the minimum Charisma to cast those spells. Then I'm going to have to restrict spells mainly to things that are useful for imbuing, since an arcane archer isn't a fire-and-death mage; while I can't stand the idea of rangers getting spells by themselves, at least a few of the spells (like Longstrider) fit a ranger's flavor.

So that's how an unexpected power-up seems to have nerfed a class's quality.

*Sigh*

 

[billd91]

So that's how an unexpected power-up seems to have nerfed a class's quality.

*Sigh*

What I see here is you being intent on some form of optimization but paralyzed by choices. Rather than embracing one fully, you're now stuck weakly embracing two of them. That's not the fault of the class, as I see it.

The caster levels the class gets allows players to do more with their spells if they choose to do so. If you start with a 1st level caster, you end up 8th level and with 4th level spells. That's just a spellcasting stat of 14. That's not that hard to achieve by the time you need it either with level increases (3 over the course of the class) or via magic items.

Or if you don't take the stats, you still get the higher level spellcasting slots which can be used to bump up your first level spells with some metamagic. As a sorcerer (or bard) you'd have to do it as a full-action rather than a standard action but that just means you lose some movement. Your rate of fire wouldn't change a bit.

 

[SteelDraco]

I agree that Imbue Arrow isn't the best of class abilities, but bill is right - it's not really the most important part of the class. I'm about to start taking levels in Arcane Archer with my current Pathfinder character (Elf Ranger6/Wizard (Transmuter) 1) and I doubt I'll use the ability much. It would be more useful, in my opinion, if it gave the Reach Spell feat with the flavor of firing magical effects from your bow. Since the BAB requirements for Arcane Archer are so high, I'll never be casting useful area effect spells compared to my allies. And, honestly, I'm fine with that. I don't think a fighter-type should be expected to compete with a straight blaster for area effects.

Personally, I intend to use the spell slots for buffing effects, that seems like a better way to go for all fighter-spellcaster types. I use a variety of buff spells to assist me and the party, along with some illusions and battlefield control to prevent enemies from engaging me in melee so I can arrow them to death. I deal the most damage in the group pretty regularly, unless the paladin is smiting someone.