When is an enemy not an enemy?

[Dr_Sage]

I am 90% sure the PC can decide who is an enemy.

This is the basic distinction between enemy and creature.

On the bright side at least in my game I accept a lock or door to be considered a creature for porpouses of spell targeting, but certanly not an enemy.

So in my table a door can be target of a magic missile, but not a target for a divine bolt for example.

 

[DracoSuave]

I am 90% sure the PC can decide who is an enemy.

Agreed, with the caveat that the creature in question can also decide if he is your enemy.

If either of you make that decision, he is your enemy. That's exactly how the rule works. If neither of you make that decision, he is your ally.

This is the basic distinction between enemy and creature.

On the bright side at least in my game I accept a lock or door to be considered a creature for porpouses of spell targeting, but certanly not an enemy.

So in my table a door can be target of a magic missile, but not a target for a divine bolt for example.

Depends on the ability and if it makes sense. I have no reason to tell the player he can't divine bolt an object because it makes some sense.


But the other thing is that your ally/enemy status don't change based on conditions... so you can't be dominated into divine bolting your teammates simply because they aren't your enemies, and the dominated condition doesn't change that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

They will know who they are trying to save, and i am not planning to have them actively attack the PCs. However, those people may not view the PCs as saviours and may be under some form of mind control.

In that case, the PCs should be able to treat them as allies, though they wouldn't have to accept it. That is, it'd be reasonable for the PCs to throw an 'all enemies' attack and not hit the innocents. But, if the innocents don't trust the PCs, they might decline 'all allies' benefits, like a mass heal or buff. That'd model a neither enemy nor ally situation.

If the innocents are actively hostile and a threat (however minor) to the PCs, then they should be counted as enemies. In a three-way fight, the enemy of your enemy might also be your enemy.

Logically, some powers might work differently than others. A close blast of thrown weapons, for instance, would logically let the PC choose which enemies he wanted to throw daggers at. OTOH, a close blast like Divine Glow might harm or buff targets based on how they feel about the caster or his deity. While that makes /sense/, it uses fluff to determine how a power functions, and game balance just doesn't come into it. It could be quite 'unfair.' 4e tries to let all powers work as written, even when it barely makes sense (you can put a warforged to sleep, even though they don't sleep), you can Sneak Attack an undead, etc...

 

[Alex319]

you can Sneak Attack an undead, etc...

Why does sneak attacking an undead not make sense?

 

[Mirtek]

If neither of you make that decision, he is your ally.

Other way round. If both of you decide that you are allies you are allies. If neither or only one of you decides you are enemies. Someone does not have to bear you just the least of ill will to be considered an enemy in 4e.

"enemy only" is a way to make AoEs easier to use while your fellow PCs are around. Being able to automatically exclude all other non-combatants just makes it too easy to headlessly throw AoEs during every bar brawl (being able to just decide to know them out instead of killing them is already a great boon in such an environment).

 

[Turtlejay]

I played in an encounter where we were trying to rescue some children. We knew that there was a gnome enemy hidden among them, not to mention the guards all around. It made it difficult to use area powers, (I didn't use any damage dealing ones at all). Try disguising, like the V for Vendetta idea used above. There are no RAW rules about using human shields, but you might have a few of the bad guys with hostages as human shields. Rule that since they are sharing a space, the bad guy has some penalties, but you also have to be careful when you attack him.

Remember that monster abilities are pretty freely determined. If you want one to have a power where he hides behind an ally or substitiutes one when targeted, you can. Just try not to be a jerk, i guess.

Jay

 

[DracoSuave]

Other way round. If both of you decide that you are allies you are allies. If neither or only one of you decides you are enemies. Someone does not have to bear you just the least of ill will to be considered an enemy in 4e.

You just said the exact same thing I did. Deciding not to be your ally is the same logically as deciding to be your enemy.

Observe.

p means you have decided the creature is your ally.
q means the creature has decided to be your ally.

r means the creature is your ally.

r = p Λ q

~r = ~(p Λ q)

~r = ~p V ~q

therefore,
the creature is not be your ally if either you, or the creature, decide it is not to be your ally.

Not being your ally means it is your enemy

Therefore, the creature decides to be your enemy if either you are the creature decide it to be so.

 

[fba827]

The way we do it at our table ...

At the time the power is used, does the -character- consider the target an enemy (someone you wish to do harm to) or an ally (innocent captives fall under ally for us). normally it is cut and dry so it doesn't take any "talking out" but in situations where people are dominated or there are questionable alliances, then it takes a little "okay, so what does my PC think from what he's seen of that target... okay then, that's an ally and that's an enemy" etc.

anyway, that's how we've been doing it. it's worked fairly cut and dry without any issues for us when done that way.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It's not any different from saying "No, you HAVE to throw daggers at your close friend", if it's a power targeting all creatures.

IMO they rules for ally/enemy are specifically made the way they are to force players to be carefull while throwing area attacks in crowded places. After all they could have easily included a "neutral" faction instead of saying that all non-allies are treated as enemies even if they do not mean you ill. The existence of "enemy only" attacks is already a boon to the player characters and explicit, but also auto-excluding civilians just makes it too easy.

Sensibly enough, all of the AOE thrown or ranged weapon bursts and blasts are enemies only. How does it make any type of sense that you could skip over people who are actively trying to help you, but not people who are just trying to stay out of the way?

Powers which target creatures are specificially made to force players to be careful. Powers which target enemies are specifically made to not do so.

Agreed, with the caveat that the creature in question can also decide if he is your enemy.

If either of you make that decision, he is your enemy. That's exactly how the rule works. If neither of you make that decision, he is your ally.

I'm assuming that this is a conscious decision on a power-by-power basis for both parties with a default of "he is my ally" "I am his ally".

Otherwise it becomes an all-too-convenient betrayal detector.

Fundamentally, the power goes off.

For each target, ask the attacker if he wishes the power to affect that target.

If the power affects allies, ask the target if he wishes to accept the power.

If the power affects enemies, the target gets no say, and is affected.

 

[Camelot]

I agree. If the attacker declares a target as an enemy, then they are an enemy. You can think of it with a regular damage attack: you attack a target with an attack that only targets enemies and deals damage, and the target gets no say if they don't want to be targeted.

This works the other way too. If you want to use an ally only power on a target, then that's your choice, not theirs. If they were your enemy, why would they refuse? So if they're your ally, it's even more of a reason to accept it.

I think the choice is solely the attacker's.