When is an enemy not an enemy?

[Mirtek]

The DM is well within his rights to say the shoppers are to frightened and undecided to make this decision

That's my point. NPCs just shouldn't always make be making the best metagaming decisions. If there's a psycho unleashing blasts of magic all over the place they'll think "Holy , this guy is mad! I need to get away" and not "Maybe if I just think about wishing him good luck his blast will leave me unharmed and just incinerate the other guy right next too me".

and thus not give any advantage trough the feat. This does not mean they are suddenly your enemies and take damage,

No, it means exactly that. Not an ally equals an enemy. 4e is this black and white in this regard.

There exists a case were a creature is neither an ally nor an enemy. You could call this condition neutral, but for all rules purposes not-ally and not-enemy is the correct appellation. In common parlance, this would be called a neutral or bystander.

And D&D makes it clear that it doesn't acknowledge this real world condition

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, 4e is pretty clear. Anyone who's not your ally is your enemy.

Of course, it also make it perfectly clear that /you/ are not your own ally.

Interpret how you like.

 

[ChristopherA]

Of course, it also make it perfectly clear that /you/ are not your own ally.

Interpret how you like.

Well, this at least seems pretty intuitive. I don't think, in real life, I'd ever use the term "ally" to include myself, except in a metaphorical sense.

The part about whether innocent, confused neutrals can qualify as allies is more confusing. The attacker throwing the barrage of blades probably doesn't consider them "allies" in the strictest sense, but wants them to be allies for purposes of the attack. The neutrals certainly don't consider the weird scary guy to be an "ally" in the normal english-language sense, but they sure as heck don't want to be hit with the scary blades, i.e. they want to be considered allies for purposes of the attack. Is that sufficient to treat them as allies for that one attack? Otherwise, the rules say they are enemies.

 

[karossii]

According to a strict reading of the rules, a player never gets to choose who is his or her enemy. Every non ally, even if they are considered neutral, are enemies. If the victims in need of rescue don't consider the players their allies for whatever reason (mind control, fear, lies, etc.), they are the players enemies, even if the players wish otherwise.

Of course, strict readings of the rules can result in some silly results - notably the fact that you are an enemy to yourself. The rules specifically state you are not your own ally. And anyone not your ally is your enemy, so...

[edit] damn, should have read the full thread before posting, someone already mentioned that bit lol.

 

[Starfox]

Rules reference on "enemy" and "ally" please, page and/or quote.

 

[Mirtek]

Rules reference on "enemy" and "ally" please, page and/or quote.

PHB 1, page 57:

“ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.

 

[Saeviomagy]

That's my point. NPCs just shouldn't always make be making the best metagaming decisions. If there's a psycho unleashing blasts of magic all over the place they'll think "Holy , this guy is mad! I need to get away" and not "Maybe if I just think about wishing him good luck his blast will leave me unharmed and just incinerate the other guy right next too me".

I don't think they'll be going "I think I'll deliberately leap into that blast of magic that was conveniently missing me!" though. All they have to do is not want to be hit, and voila! They're not hit!

 

[Camelot]

PHB 1, page 57:

“ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.

There you go.

 

[KKDragonLord]

Is the enemy of your enemy your friend?

Some powers such as melee attack powers and exploits in general, where the character obviously decides who he is attacking, i rule that they can choose not to perform the attack.

Other powers such as Fire Shroud, i still let them decide who they will choose to set on fire and who they won't, its what makes the power different after all, you can throw it on top of your defender and striker and the only one caught in it will be the foe that stands between them.

But you may also tell them that allies as is described in the book, means "all the members of the party" instead of city guards coming to your aid and such.

It depends on what you want it to be, but you should alert the players of that ruling so they become aware of your interpretation.

I for one, allow the players to choose their targets on powers that target enemies and to mess with their heads i make the innocent civilians be shapeshifters, doppelgangers, disguised assassins, disguised enemies from another faction, and at times, i make civillian innocent monsters, just to mess with their heads. They learn quickly to roll those insight checks when choosing who to target. More than once they had troubles for knocking people unconscious with fireballs, as those people tend to feel a bit burned =p

 

[GMforPowergamers]

enemy only targets are suppose to be aimed powers...if the npc doesn't have a good reason to consider themselves an enemy they would not.

In reality in your example those NPCs are not enemies...by any streatch and I would be very upset as a player if one of my powers that targets enemies targeted people who are no threat...