When is D&D not D&D?

[Larrin]

As long as i can say "My 7th level elf wizard casts maigc missle" and it means what i know it means.....Its D&D

...and if its technically supposed to be "my 7th level Eladrin wizard uses his magic missle arcane strike" well, i'll say it my way, cuz i'll be playing D&D.

No one but you can stop you from playing D&D....regardless of fluff and crunch.

 

[jester47]

Despite what a gamer might want through personal definition, D&D is whatever the publisher of D&D makes it so long as someone holds the legal license to publish a product called D&D. Conversely, in the mind of the General Public D&D and table top RPGs are one and the same, no matter how the rules or fluff are written. When they find out that playing "Star Troopers From Extradimensional Mars" involves a table, pens and pencils, paper, a bunch of books and dice they say "oh its D&D."

D&D can't stop being D&D. And a lot of other RPGs can't stop being D&D either.

 

[jester47]

As long as you are fighting things and taking their stuff, it is D&D to me.

QF additional T.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

It's like that old Supreme Court ruling on pornography. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

My thoughts exactly. Which is what makes a lot of the current "It's (not) D&D" discussions so...erm...interesting.

Oh, and from an experienced Das Schwarze Auge player, it's pretty much NOT D&D. The systems are totally incompatible, the power level is completely different (we used to mix DSA and D&D characters now and then...what a mess ), and even though it started as the home brew system of the german translator of the D&D Basic Set (Ulrich Kiesow also did some of the B-series adventures), it ended up something completely different.

 

[Desdichado]

Despite what a gamer might want through personal definition, D&D is whatever the publisher of D&D makes it so long as someone holds the legal license to publish a product called D&D. Conversely, in the mind of the General Public D&D and table top RPGs are one and the same, no matter how the rules or fluff are written. When they find out that playing "Star Troopers From Extradimensional Mars" involves a table, pens and pencils, paper, a bunch of books and dice they say "oh its D&D."

D&D can't stop being D&D. And a lot of other RPGs can't stop being D&D either.

That's funny, but it's also true. I mean, Hackmaster and OSRIC aren't D&D; they're hackmaster and OSRIC. Even though they're D&D.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

The true essence of D&D I think is near impossible to know, so we'll just have to rely on our collective gut feeling about it.

 

[JamesM]

That's funny, but it's also true. I mean, Hackmaster and OSRIC aren't D&D; they're hackmaster and OSRIC. Even though they're D&D.

That's a very cogent observation and I think it's clear that both aren't D&D for reasons beyond the positivist "because they don't say D&D on their covers." In a similar vein, neither Arcana Evolved nor Warlords of the Accordlands are D&D, but why not?

I think finding an answer to these questions that goes beyond the glib would go a long way toward resolving a lot of issues swirling around 4E.

 

[Desdichado]

That's a very cogent observation and I think it's clear that both aren't D&D for reasons beyond the positivist "because they don't say D&D on their covers."

Maybe so, but the point I was making was that that pretty much is the reason why they aren't D&D; because they don't say D&D on the covers, even though the rules are almost exactly AD&D 1e.

Then again, maybe my statement could be construed as some kind of gestalt group consciousness about what is or isn't D&D, but even then, I'd say the root of the gestalt group consciousness is "does it say D&D on the cover, or not?"

 

[JamesM]

Then again, maybe my statement could be construed as some kind of gestalt group consciousness about what is or isn't D&D, but even then, I'd say the root of the gestalt group consciousness is "does it say D&D on the cover, or not?"

To start with, sure, what made D&D D&D was nothing more than that's what Gygax and Arneson called their game. Over time, though, I'd argue that "D&D" came to refer to more than just the game whose books had that name on their covers. It referred to a very specific mélange of pulp fantasy, horror, and science fiction with a very specific set of elements and tropes. Abandon (or be unable to use all those things) and you're skirting the edge of what is recognizably D&D to a lot of people.

I do suspect, though, that the vast majority of people see D&D just as a brand they're attached to, regardless of its specific content.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I've heard editors talk about the "red line of death." This is a red line they draw where they stopped reading the story because they are fed up with all the story inconsistencies, spelling errors, plot wanderings, etc and they send it back to the author. Take that idea and apply it to 4E D&D.

For me.... I don't know yet. Its definitely heading towards my RLoD, but I'm not there yet. Will it get there at the rate its going ... tough to say.