D&D General When Players Refuse to learn The Rules

[Malmuria]

This bothers me too, especially with people who been playing for years. And baffling too, as these are really smart people (if I have to explain how to calculate spell save dc one more time...).

But then I wonder, maybe it's not the players fault, but the game's (hate is too strong a word...). Some players just don't care about the rules. The flip side to this is that they also don't care if they do something suboptimal (like forgetting to add their proficiency bonus). It's what got me interested in rules lite games.

There's also the question of finding the right tools. When the pandemic started I was dming and tried to switch to roll 20, but I found there was just too much cognitive load between finding images and maps on roll 20, paying attention to the players and my own notes and tabs I had open, not to mention various technical problems that come up. This post describes it as "creeping doom." We switched to doing mostly Totm + owlbear rodeo for anything that needed a map and it was much easier.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Which, if someone's coming from an old-school system where much more game-mechanical work was kept DM-side, is in my view a perfectly reasonable attitude: "I don't want to learn this stuff, because I shouldn't have to learn this stuff, because this stuff is and should remain the DM's job rather than the players'."

Even OD&D expected players to know how their own damn spells worked and what they're class features were; to understand how to roll an attack roll and what to add to it. That kind of thing was never just the GM's job.

 

[Lanefan]

As with all things in RPG gaming, this is a matter of communication. My players aren't looking to immerse themselves by not having to engage the rules and focus on roleplay. I hesitate to say it is because they are lazy. Rather I think it is because the game isn't that important to them at the end of the day so they don't put any effort into it.

Fair enough; and that is, I suppose, something we hardcore nutballers just have to tolerate sometimes - that not everyone is quite as hardcore as we are. Everyone's got a different tolerance level, and for different things; for example I'll almost always take an engaged-but-argumentative player over a disengaged player whose phone is more important than the table.

 

[Lanefan]

Even OD&D expected players to know how their own damn spells worked and what they're class features were;

Note, however, that in OD&D there weren't nearly as many of either as there are in today's game.

to understand how to roll an attack roll and what to add to it. That kind of thing was never just the GM's job.

The DM worked out the combat-matrix part, the saves, and a bunch of other stuff. Players just needed to a) roll the dice and b) tell the DM why those dice were rolled...preferably in reverse order.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Note, however, that in OD&D there weren't nearly as many of either as there are in today's game.

Even in today game you don't need to know the whole book; just the spells you actually bother to prepare.

The DM worked out the combat-matrix part, the saves, and a bunch of other stuff. Players just needed to a) roll the dice and b) tell the DM why those dice were rolled...preferably in reverse order.

Read what I said again. Even as of Greyhawk they had to know what to add (or subtract) from the die roll. While not as frequent as now, too many characters had bonuses or penalties. And you still needed to know what damage dice to roll.

 

[Charlaquin]

I had a rogue player that completed an entire campaign ending at level 12 and still never knew how many damage dice to roll when doing a sneak attack. I don't play with them anymore.

How am I supposed to remember when the number keeps changing every other time I gain a lev… ooooooooooooooh… Now I get it!

 

[Blue]

Played with one veteran RPGer who somehow had missed playing D&D for decades. 5e was their first D&D. And some things just did. not. stick.

Created elven archers in multiple campaigns, trying both single-classed ranger and single classed ranger. Several times. Just couldn't get it. Didn't know what dice to add. Couldn't remember Hunter's Mark. Would attack without thinking if they would have Sneak Attack on his target. Needed to be coached through bonuses to hit. Every attack. Needed to be told what to roll for crits every time.

But a great roleplayer, and a vet of other systems.

 

[toucanbuzz]

This is just a bit of a rant....if you don't know the game and don't want to learn the game or even read your spells before you try and cast them, save us all the frustration and play a Champion Fighter instead, huh?

Been there. Some people are there simply to socialize and veg out. Format of online vs. live doesn't change that.

However, there may come a time when not knowing your character bites you, even for an involved player. Recently had a character death when I rolled multiple monster critical hits and PC's cleric died. He was a big contributor to the table, not vegging out. He forgot he had a magical emblem that let him, 3/day, turn crits into normal hits. His character might have lived. He realized that afterwards. I didn't say a thing. He lamented to the group he screwed up. The item is now being used by another PC. She hasn't missed the chance to use it even once.

So, I put it out there that there's hope for change.

 

[Flamestrike]

I explain the rules as I go. It's part of the DMs job. You get it explained to you a maximum of twice, then from the third time onwards you're on your own.

It doesn't slow things down, because I only give PCs several seconds on their turn to tell me what they're doing or their turn ends and they take the Dodge action.

After the session I'll nudge the guys that are not learning towards the PHB.

 

[Shiroiken]

It absolutely kills me when players can't be bothered to learn even the basics of their characters, the game rules or (in this case) the VTT. And I don't mean new players that haven't engaged in RPG before. I mean players with decades of experience in general and at least a dozen sessions in this game alone. First of all, it slows the game to crawl when they can't figure out what button to click to roll to hit, or how to target enemy tokens and that sort of thing.

I think you need to break the rant down into players who don't learn the game vs. players who don't learn the VTT. Players who refuse to learn the game (or at least their own character) drive me nuts, since they bog the game down every single time. Sometimes they make poor decisions because they don't know a rule or forgot a character ability/spell, but after one time of reminding someone, they're on their own. If they get frustrated, it should be directed at themselves.

As for a VTT, this is a bit different, as some people are more technologically skilled than others. I think the key is for the players to figure out the absolute minimum they need to understand. In Roll20 that's the /roll command and the ability to move their token. I had a player who kept his sheet IRL and only used that one command for almost a year while he figured out Roll20. Yeah, there's a lot of cool things you can do, but trying too much can screw a lot of it up. The only requirement I have for the players is that they know where to place AC and HP on their token so I can reference it.

These are the kind of players the Champion Fighter was made for, but for some reason they usually insist on playing Wizards.

QFT! Doesn't even have to be champion fighter, as barbarian and warlock also have a lot of straightforward options. The paladin, rogue, and moon druid don't have to be that complicated either. 5E has provided a TON of simple character designs (even sorcerer for the streamlined caster), but some people choose to make life hard for themselves. This is why I choose not to game with these people anymore.