When should characters start facing epic encounters?

[the Jester]

Is it fair to throw epic encounters at pcs below epic levels, do you think? And how far below epic levels is it fair?

Not that I'm planning on doing that real soon or anything, I'm just curious. Has anyone fought an epic monster with 19th-level characters? How'd it go?

 

[Squire James]

From my experience, you have to be real careful. Some monsters with CR in the low 20's make assumptions that the PC's have access to epic items (like DR 50/+6). If you steer clear of them, it will probably be okay.

I ran my 19th level min-maxed PC's against a White Slaad. It held its own pretty well, lasting 5 rounds and breaking 2 weapons (worth as much as, oh, 80 True Resurrection spells). Needless to say, there is an avid interest in adamantine weapons all of the sudden (not to mention inquiries about whether obdurium can be used for other things besides castle walls).

 

[Dark Dragon]

I had a fight with a paragon illithid in mind as a conclusion for my campaign. The party (7 characters) would be then at about 16 th level and has a very powerful artefact. When I started to build the big evil boss, I realized that the group won't manage it except with very good luck, even with artefact assistance

Well, it provides stuff for another adventure...

As James said, even low CR epic monsters have at least SR and good DR to penetrate, so, be careful.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I don't know about this but my party of 1 15th level , 1 14th level, 2 13th level and 1 10th level characters with 2 10 th level and 4 7th level followers are about to fight an old red dragon (CR 19).

If they can win (even if it is just a follower left at the end) I'm sure you can pit your level 19 guys against an epic level monster as long as its no higher than 5 ELs above the characters level. Just look out for DR and insanely high SR.

 

[Ascending Crane]

That was one problem I have with Epic Level. Where were these epic characters/monsters before...?? Keepin' a low profile?

So I say bring in the epic folk from the beginning. Level 1.

No, I'm not saying have the PC's attacked by a Paragon Illithid when they can't even afford a warhorse. Just the stories, lore, and rumors of these uber-powerful monsters would be cool.

Not to mention epic characters! I plan on making a few of the NPC's the players meet epic-level, although they it won't be that obvious, of course.

My $0.02 at 6:30 in the morn'.

 

[Darkness]

What Ascending Crane said: They should have always been there - no matter the level of the PCs.

Now, they'll only have a reason to fight the PCs when the latter have reached a much higher power level, of course.
How high depends on the creature in question and what the PCs are capable of accomplishing (not just level-wise, that is, but plot-wise).

 

[mkletch]

Considering the insane DR and SR of most epic monsters, the most manageable epic encounters are with epic NPCs. Even with NPC-grade equipment, non-spellcaster epic NPCs can rock. Plus it's easier to build a story around epic NPCs than some monster that should eat islands for snacks and landbound kingdoms for lunch.

-Fletch!

 

[Darkness]

Considering the insane DR and SR of most epic monsters, the most manageable epic encounters are with epic NPCs. Even with NPC-grade equipment, non-spellcaster epic NPCs can rock. Plus it's easier to build a story around epic NPCs than some monster that should eat islands for snacks and landbound kingdoms for lunch.

-Fletch!

Good point. Still, the booty will be quite substantial.

 

[the Jester]

Keep in mind too that's it's relatively easy to build an epic-level (CR 21+) encounter without using the epic monsters. For instance, take a beholder, slap the shadow template on it (CR +1), slap the fiendish template on it (another +2) and then give it five barbarian levels... poof! CR21 beholder! At least initially, that's more the kind of thing I'm thinking of- layering advancement, levels and templates on already-tough monsters. (Not that I used a fiendish shadow beholder barbarian... but you get the idea.)

By the time the group gets to the EL 20 encounter I wrote I estimate they'll range from 15th-18th level; there are five or six of them, plus one or two cohorts (potentially).

 

[bolen]

first level, you know my campaigns are always one shots. I wonder why?