When taking WF (Unarmed), does it also apply to melee touch attacks? (WotC response!)

[Magic Slim]

This was brought up in another thread (Shocking grasp and Critical hit) and I just wanted to make sure that I got sufficient input on it.

My hypothesis is that if you take Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike) and you try to make a melee touch attack, the Weapon Focus bonus applies to the melee touch as well. (You can substitute Weapon focus for any Weapon-specific feat)

My argument would be that if you take Weapon Focus (spiked chain), and you try to make a trip attack with your spiked chain, you'll need first to make a melee touch attack with your spiked chain, and that the Weapon focus bonus will apply to your melee touch attack. Replace "spiked chain" with "unarmed strike".

Slim

 

[Camarath]

I believe you are right. The SRD quote seems to say the touch attacks are considered Unarmed Attacks so Weapon focus should add to your attack IMO.

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

 

[Caliban]

I believe you are right. The SRD quote seems to say the touch attacks are considered Unarmed Attacks so Weapon focus should add to your attack IMO.

A mace and a morninstart are very similar, yet require different weapon focus feats.

A shortsword and a rapier are both swords, yet require different weapon focus feats.

And unarmed strike and a grapple are both unarmed attackes, yet require different weapon focus feats.

An unarmed strike and a melee touch attack are both unarmed attacks, but would also require different weapon feats.

If it has a game mechanical difference, it's generally a different type of weapon, and requires it's own set of weapon feats. Touch attacks and Unarmed Strikes are very mechanically different.

 

[Camarath]

A mace and a morninstart are very similar, yet require different weapon focus feats.

A shortsword and a rapier are both swords, yet require different weapon focus feats.

Do touch attacks and normal attacks with the same weapon require different Weapon Focus feats?

And unarmed strike and a grapple are both unarmed attackes, yet require different weapon focus feats.

Do you mean grapple checks, attacks wile in a grapple, or attacks to initiate a grapple?

An unarmed strike and a melee touch attack are both unarmed attacks, but would also require different weapon feats.

Why? I think that if you make any kind of attack roll using an unarmed attack then you should benefit from Weapon Focus (Unarmed)

If it has a game mechanical difference, it's generally a different type of weapon, and requires it's own set of weapon feats. Touch attacks and Unarmed Strikes are very mechanically different.

They both use the same type of weapon. A disarm attempt and an attack roll are both "very mechanically different" but they can both benefit from the same weapon focus. I am not really sure what you are getting at. Are you suggesting that you can take Weapon Focus (Touch Attack) because I did not think Touch Attack counted as a distinct weapon type?

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

Would it apply to only Melee Touch Attacks or Ranged Touch Attacks as well? I would say Melee only as a Ranged Touch attack uses the same mechanics as a Melee Touch Attack, but is used to work out success for Ray spells and the like, which has nothing to do with how well you use your hands.

 

[Magic Slim]

Would it apply to only Melee Touch Attacks or Ranged Touch Attacks as well? I would say Melee only as a Ranged Touch attack uses the same mechanics as a Melee Touch Attack, but is used to work out success for Ray spells and the like, which has nothing to do with how well you use your hands.

A parallel question to this... All Ray spells are ranged touch attacks... Are all spells that require a ranged touch attack ray spells?

"Weapon Focus (Ray)" is a separate feat. It's given as an example in the SRD (and probably PHB).

Slim

 

[Hypersmurf]

A parallel question to this... All Ray spells are ranged touch attacks... Are all spells that require a ranged touch attack ray spells?

No. Produce Flame, for example, is an Energy Missile.

The three categories of "weaponlike spells" are Rays, Energy Missiles, and Touch Spells. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Weapon Focus (Touch Spell) are two different feats.

-Hyp.

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

Frankly, this is a situation where I'd base my ruling on K.I.S.S. If Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) only applies to a certain class of touch attack spells and not all it shouldn't apply to others. There is no exhaustive list for the Weapon Focus feat, so I see no reason why there shouldn't be a Weapon Focus (Touch Attack), which wouls rightly apply to all touch attacks.

 

[Magic Slim]

No. Produce Flame, for example, is an Energy Missile.

The three categories of "weaponlike spells" are Rays, Energy Missiles, and Touch Spells. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Weapon Focus (Touch Spell) are two different feats.

-Hyp.

What about Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike) and Weapon Focus (Touch attack)?

Slim

 

[Magic Slim]

Frankly, this is a situation where I'd base my ruling on K.I.S.S. If Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) only applies to a certain class of touch attack spells and not all it shouldn't apply to others. There is no exhaustive list for the Weapon Focus feat, so I see no reason why there shouldn't be a Weapon Focus (Touch Attack), which wouls rightly apply to all touch attacks.

Hehe this makes me think of a silly example (I stated in the other thread that I'd start a new thread with this, but here is as good):

Caster with an active Produce Flame (or any spell with which you can deal melee touch damage).

Said caster tries to trip an opponent.

a) Does he incur an AoO?
b) Does he damage his opponent if the melee touch attack succeeds?
c) If he had WF (Touch spell), would he have gotten a bonus to his Melee Touch Attack?
d) If he had WF (Unarmed strike), would he have gotten a bonus to his Melee touch attack?

Slim