When the PCs Can Beat Everything

[Retreater]

During last night's session the party, which includes six 10th level characters, trounced every encounter I threw at them. I put one at the end designed to be a tough one, which included 2 bone devils and a 13th level fighter (with really awesome stats and great equipment). This amounted to a CR 14, and it was all but over before the middle of the second round. Mind you this was after four encounters equal to the party's level.

I don't mind them succeeding, but I'm getting tired of never being able to hit the PCs, and if I do hit something, I'm just attacking some summoned creature. The players are getting bored, saying things like ... we know these bone devils can't do anything to us, so can we just fast-forward ahead and go to the next encounter (yawn.)

So what should I do to challenge these guys? They're all pretty unanimous that we continue to play with these characters, but I'm having trouble finding anything. I'm also a little pressed for free time to design my own modules, so if you know a good module to recommend, let me know.

I'm considering that the party basically functions at 14th level.

Retreater

 

[nick012000]

The problem you've got is that you've got a large party. Rather than increasing the CR of the monsters, which would lead to situations where one side will utterly crush the other, you should increase the numbers of monsters instead. So, instead of throwing two mind flayers at them, throw four or six at them instead.

 

[kenobi65]

Is the party particularly optimized to fight a certain kind of opponent? If so, give them something that they *aren't* optimized for.

One of the groups I DM for is now 17th-18th level. They'd fought a lot of evil critters (particularly CE), and so, they had focused a lot of their abilities on that (holy weapons, etc.) I gave them a very tough fight by making them fight slaadi.

I concur with nick....when it's 2 PCs taking turns for every single action by an NPC, the CR will frequently get out of whack. Try giving them encounters where it's equal odds, or even where they're outnumbered.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

First off, if the characters seem to be able to "beat" encounters that should be challenging to them easily, there are a few things to consider. But note that not all suggestion wil lmake sense for what you want your game to be about - you are entering a region where you have to adress certain drawbacks of the system, and that rarely is something "nice". And you risk getting into "unfair" territory if you do too much.

- Use a challenging Dragon (CR = Party Level +4). Or Better, use two (but CR "only" Party Level +2).
- Pick creatures with even higher CR. (Maybe just by adding one level (not HD) in a class, to gain the elite ability array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). Or pick two levels in a non-associated class for high HD monsters. A non-spellcasting monster with wizard or sorceror levels that can cast Shield or Mage Armor can grant itself a considerable bonus this way.)
- Use more monsters. Especially useful if the party is unusually large (with a lot of companions and summoned monster, this happens particularly often), less useful if you simply can't hit anymore.
- Give them less time to recover, by putting a time constraint on their tasks. If you frequently throw only one or two encounters per day at them, casters will be able to "nova" and use a great portion of their resources in one encounter, where they are "supposed" to use them over the course of several ones.

Then, you need to lock at the party's strength.
- If they summon a lot of monsters, some enemies should be able to counter this via dispel magic / banishment.
- If their armor class is high, rely more on magic abilities that ignore that.

Then, do they have any weaknesses? Can you find ways to exploit them better?

Then:
Consider "Cheating" (Or less offensive: Use Rule Zero) - give monsters that you know that can your PCs, you can maximize or plain double their hit points, and improving their saves.
If you can't find a monster that can hit without things breaking apart, simply give them arbitrarily higher attack values and saving throw DCs.
You can remedy your "cheating" by giving the PCs comparitvely more XP for the monster/adjusting its CR accordingly for the purposes of XP.

Example Approach
Cheater Template: Elite Monster
Hit Points: Monsters HD are maximized
Bonus Feat:
Monster gains Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus, Ability Focus, Superior Weapon Focus, Improved Natural Attack and Improved Toughness
Challenge Rating: +1

 

[kenobi65]

- Pick creatures with even higher CR. (Maybe just by adding one level (not HD) in a class, to gain the elite ability array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). Or pick two levels in a non-associated class for high HD monsters. A non-spellcasting monster with wizard or sorceror levels that can cast Shield or Mage Armor can grant itself a considerable bonus this way.)

When I throw "leveled" NPCs at them, I tend to give those NPCs (particularly ones that are supposed to be more than speed bumps) the same point-buy that I give the PCs. Makes it a fair fight.

One other trick that I've learned...use their great ideas against them. Do they have a spell that they always use? Some combat maneuver that they think's unbeatable? Have the NPCs use the same thing. In a recent combat I ran, the PCs noted how easy a time some of the NPCs were having with them. "Gee, maybe *their* cleric cast Righteous Wrath of the Faithful right before the combat."

 

[Vurt]

Six 10th-level characters is probably functionally equivalent (more or less) to four 12th-level characters (just without access to 6th level spells, but with more individual actions available per round). So right off the bat, warming them up with three or four EL 10 probably won't use up terribly many of their daily resources, and when the climax came, they were still reasonably fresh. That said, you know your players best, they may also be very optimized at what they do.

So I'd consider the party 12th level, maybe 13th, and go from there.

That said, another issue you hint at with your bone devil comment is that the players are too familiar with the bad guys and their capabilities. The easiest way to deal with this is to throw oddball creatures and combinations at them, but to describe them differently. Use the stats you want, but don't make it obvious to your players what that is, and absolutely don't tell them what you're doing afterwards. Apply penalties to knowledge checks because these creatures are relatively unique and unheard of. Throw in the occasional incorrect rumor. Do whatever you can to add noise to the signal of information that the players receive, forcing them to start thinking again, if only to separate the good intel from the bad.

Mind you, at around this level, things start to become somewhat arbitrary anyway. I recently played in an encounter, in which the four 12th level characters, bolstered by a 12th level NPC, went up against five CR 12 creatures, one of which the NPC could not physically damage. This EL 17 encounter turned into a cakewalk after the party wizard threw up a repulsion early on. None of the creatures were able to make their Will saves to approach, and then the party pretty much sat back while the wizard pummeled the monsters with empowered fireballs and the like until the repulsion faded. By then, three were toast, and the remaining two were moderately damaged and didn't last two more rounds. Which is to say, the right spells can make this sort of thing much more frequent. I'd just say accept it, and throw more encounters their way, but scale back the XP and treasure proportionately. Have some of the extra encounters come as "reinforcements" at the tail end of another encounter, and it may not be all that obvious you're trying to slip in a couple extra before the players can rest.

 

[Peni Griffin]

This is the reason every campaign I've ever been in wrapped up at high levels. If you pass the DM's ability to challenge the party, you stop having fun. Simply jacking up the numbers, whether the degree of CR or the number of opponents, merely makes the problem worse as it increases the rate of progression and number of resources available.

First thing I'd do is, take some time off. Tell them "Somebody else needs to DM awhile or maybe we should play board games; I'm getting stale." Take a month of downtime.

Second thing I'd do is, I'd take the month to examine my campaign and figure out how to increase the challenge level by means other than simply throwing bigger and badder monsters at them. What can you do to make the ongoing plot threads more intrinsically interesting, so as to present role-playing challenges rather than combat challenges? Can you change the environment they work in - take their dungeon-optimized skills onto a ship, under water, or to another plane, someplace where their established strategies don't work as well? Are there any antagonists who have had a chance to study their techniques and prepare countermeasures for them? Does anybody have noncombat feats or skills that they don't normally get to use; and if so, can you generate a scenario in which these skills are a more effective means to the goal than combat? Can you create situations that deprive them of resources in a way that they will accept as logical and fair (anti-magic zones, traps with Mordenkainen's disjunction, an oxygen-rich atmosphere inside an airship in which electric and fire-based attacks are too dangerous, a kingdom in which resource X is a royal monopoly and they have a motive not to piss off the enforcers, etc.) within the setting? How can you run antagonists more effectively? Can any of their established allies turn traitor?

At the end of the month, you will either have a lot of inspiring ideas for how to handle these characters, or you'll realize that you've reached your limit and can't salvage the campaign. If the former, good. If the latter, your players have had a month to get used to not running the characters and may be more willing than you expect to start something new.

The third thing I'd do is consult with some of the players - you know which ones - on how the players and DM can work together to solve this problem.

Good luck.

 

[Quartz]

Go for the more monsters rather than bigger or better monsters. Where there's one sergeant, put two - perhaps they were discussing the roster? As far as modules go, one thing you can do is assume a full level of alertness: if there's a combat in area A, then those in areas B and C will react - likely joining the fray.

How are your PCs going to react to a group of ogres each atop a triceratops and each with levels?

How are the PCs going to react when they have something (or someone) fragile in their care?

Or you could be really cruel and use a Mirror of Opposition.

 

[Flynn]

I agree with the recommendation to add more monsters. Here's the thing: you essentially have two 10th level parties travelling together, so double the number of monsters in the encounters. If you just look for higher CR monsters, you start running into the problem of monsters that require higher level abilities to deal with effectively. By using more monsters of the same character level, they have the proper abilities to face the creatures, but now the creatures get to try and hit them as often as they get to try and hit the PCs.

Also, I have this rule in my campaign: "whatever you can do, I can do, too." In essence, this rule keeps the munchkin players from maximizing their effectiveness through rules twinks, because then they know it'll be used against them. I assume that your players have created very effective characters. Look them over, figure out why they are effective, and duplicate that in your monsters.

Between these two techniques, you'll soon see the PCs being challenged by the encounters again.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Doug McCrae]

Easy solution: More and bigger monsters.
Hard solution: Become a tactical genius.