When the PCs Can Beat Everything

Retreater said:
So my problems are dealing with summoning, dealing with impossibly high ACs (in the 30s at 10th level), spell effects that (when combined through 2-3 casters) inflict close to 100 points of damage/round, and having monsters that can do some significant damage to a character before getting turned into ground beef by summoned creatures.

The summoning can be a pain in the ass simply because it eats time at the table, but none of the other things sound particularly difficult to deal with. It's easy to have CR 10 enemies who can reliably hit AC 30+, and if you're using spellcasters or enemies who use touch attacks, most of that AC gets nullified. Similarly, most creatures summoned by 10th lvl clerics or druids will have problems hitting an enemy with a good AC, and the right protective spells (Protection from X) means they can't even touch the enemies.

Why don't you post the various characters with their class breakups and approximate AC, hp, attacks and tactics? I think you'll find that there are a lot of people here on ENWorld who can suggest easy ways to challenge them (and there have already been some good suggestions in this thread). In my estimation, a DM who's tactically on the ball can reliably take down a group of PCs of level X with an equal number of enemies of level X-2. In short, I'm betting you could give the PCs the willies with six CR 8 enemies if you played it right.
 

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ACs are high mostly due to magic items, which were purchased legally with the standard wealth guidelines of 10th level. There is a good deal of min/maxing ... such as "if I wear X armor then I can have Y max Dex, then I will buy gloves of Dexterity Z so I will have Dex bonus Y." I think you get the idea. But, then again, I'm the same way when bringing in a character I haven't worked up from 1st level.

Mostly they are having in the neighborhood of 3-4 encounters per day. Last session it was 5 encounters.

I am aware that summoning spells are full round actions. However, my opponents just can't get to the druid to stop him, not with 30 AC / 100 hp fighters and a nasty animal companion standing in the way. I was not aware that Magic Circle Against Good/Evil would stop a druid's Nature's Summoning; I guess I just thought they had to be creatures summoned from an aligned plane. If this is true, that might help for an encounter, but I wouldn't want to do it every time.



As far as 4e "saving us" .... let's just say that I would like to find a way to make this campaign work within the confines of 3.5.

Retreater
 

Retreater said:
I am aware that summoning spells are full round actions. However, my opponents just can't get to the druid to stop him, not with 30 AC / 100 hp fighters and a nasty animal companion standing in the way.

Sounds like you need to dump more AoE spells on them while they're summoning. Druids and clerics have notoriously crummy Reflex saves. :D
 

Rackhir said:
If they're doing it with buffs, those run out. Also they should get ambushed at least once in a while before/while they're buffing.

That's an important one, too. A party that's used to buffing itself to high heaven finds itself in a far less advantageous situation when they get surprised.

Don't surprise them all the time, but make sure that they aren't getting 5 rounds to prepare before every single combat.
 

Retreater said:
I was not aware that Magic Circle Against Good/Evil would stop a druid's Nature's Summoning; I guess I just thought they had to be creatures summoned from an aligned plane. If this is true, that might help for an encounter, but I wouldn't want to do it every time.

Read the fourth paragraph of Protection From Evil closely:

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect.

No mention of plane of origin, it just says "summoned creatures" (and Summon Nature's Ally is a Conjuration (Summoning)). Assuming your baddies are packing Protection From Good, the only thing that wouldn't be stopped are the few Evil-aligned critters on the list.

Also, note that the protection granted by the spell lapses if the protected creature attacks the blocked creature.
 

kenobi65 said:
Sounds like you need to dump more AoE spells on them while they're summoning. Druids and clerics have notoriously crummy Reflex saves. :D

Another option is use some opponents who negate some of their strengths.

For example, shadows in packs can be extremely dangerous. Touch attacks, incoporeal, flight, essentially invisible in dimly lit areas, strength damage. One greater shadow is only CR 8. Try using a dozen, hitting from all sides, in a cramped location, and the party could be in trouble.

Option: Have the shadows use hit and run tactics, with an evil cleric with feats from Libris Mortis designed to bolster the undead, and a couple necrosis carnex from MM4 for healing any damage done to the shadows. Keep the cleric and necrosis carnex hidden, hard to reach without incorporealness, and the party may have a very tough time.
Option: Combine with some glyphs that do negative energy damage in an area effect. Injures the party and heals the undead.
Option: Make the cleric a lich, with feats and spells that not only benefit the undead around him, but the lich also.
Option: Give the lich some bestow curse spells. A failed save or two can really mess up a character's day.

You dont want to set up a TPK, but something like this can be very deadly if the party is not careful.
 

Retreater said:
I am aware that summoning spells are full round actions. However, my opponents just can't get to the druid to stop him, not with 30 AC / 100 hp fighters and a nasty animal companion standing in the way. I was not aware that Magic Circle Against Good/Evil would stop a druid's Nature's Summoning; I guess I just thought they had to be creatures summoned from an aligned plane. If this is true, that might help for an encounter, but I wouldn't want to do it every time.

Archers with readied actions or opposing casters as I described above can easily nail someone doing a summoning and inflict enough damage to make sure they loose the spell. Especially if they use this tactic a lot, it's perfectly reasonable to have opponents who will be prepared for this sort of thing. Stuff like "Benign Transposition", could then drop the Ogre barbarian/warblade in his place.

Also if they've got their ACs that high I'm guessing the fighters are wearing heavy armor which means their mobility is reduced. Rogues (or rogue barbarians for enhanced movement) can tumble past them easily or even just out maneuver them.

Don't forget about reach weapons. Large size + large weapon + reach weapon can give quite a threatened area.

Book of Nine Swords has a lot of potential. Also if you hit them with an Anti-magic field, a lot of the stuff the classes from that book do works just fine, while shutting down a lot of the stuff the casters do and even the magic items on the fighters.
 

Retreater said:
dealing with impossibly high ACs (in the 30s at 10th level)

True, some monsters in the CR 10 range will have difficulty hitting AC 30. You may need to pick and choose a few good ones. Giants, dragons, elementals, and outsiders often have attack bonuses of +20 or more by CR 10 or so.

I have good luck with pitting the PCs against human-types with class levels; they get access to the same feats and magic items that the PCs do. For instance, a Fighter 10:
- BAB +10
- Str +5 (starting Str of 16, 2 ability score bumps, Gauntlets of Ogre Power)
- Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus for +2
- Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB2 feat) for another +2
- +1 weapon

Nothing illegal or even unusual in there, and I just made a guy who has +20 to hit; he's going to be able to hit your AC 30 PCs half the time with no other help. Now, give him a few buffs:

- Prayer from his cleric friend for +1 (and -1 for the PCs, too)
- Inspire Courage from his bard friend (along with Inspirational Boost, a spell from Spell Compendium) for +3
- Bull's Strength from his cleric or wizard friend for another +1 (doesn't stack with the gauntlets)
- Haste from his wizard friend for another +1 (plus an extra attack)
- Flanking from his rogue buddy (who has an obscene Tumble score).

Now he's got 3 attacks per round, at +28/+28/+23.

In short: when you're DMing for higher-level PCs, you may need to do more work in the set-up to give them a significant challenge.
 

When the DM is less tactically competent than the PCs - or doesn't know how to exploit the rules as well - these sorts of things happen. It's the unfortunate effect of not writing out optimized combat behavior in the monster entry (I don't mean there are no combat routines - I mean the ones offered usually suck.) I don't mean any offense by this, but your remark that AC 30 is "impossibly high" at 10th level indicates that you are not an optimizer. (An AC in the 50s can be attained at 6th level, if you optimize.)

In general, when you DM for powergamers, you need to start thinking like an optimizer, if only to appreciate the angle they come at things from. For example, what do you think class levels are? If you answered that they explain a character's identity, you've given a predictable non-optimizer response. The optimizer thinks of levels as the currency with which he buys feats, skills, and class abilities - those things that make up the engine of destruction that is an optimized character.

You, as a DM, need to think about things that way too. Only, you aren't buying levels and LA, you're buying HD and CR. The easiest thing to do if you have no particular goal in mind is just hunt for "bargains." Many templates cost half as much to put on a monster or NPC as they cost in LA - and many are monster only. A PC becoming a vampire is making a losing trade - but an NPC gains the exact same benefits at the cost of only a slight increase in CR. This is an example of what you might consider a bargain.

Retreater said:
Here's what's been going on. This isn't based only on the number of players we have (though there are a lot). Many enemies (of equal CR to the party's level) have to roll a natural 20 just to hit the characters. Other enemies, even with a load of hit points, pretty good AC, and DR are getting chopped down left and right. The worst thing though is summoning. Both the druid and the cleric are throwing lots of monsters/animals with many attacks. It's slowing down the game by adding even more combatants into the fray. It's not unusual to have a 2 hour combat with what amounts to 10 or more PCs (including their summoned creatures and animal companions).

There is a spell called Wraithstrike. Use it. An abnormal troll with 4 levels of sorc (non-class, so they count 2 to 1 for CR purposes, meaning you can get the levels for 2 CR) is much more of a legitimate melee threat than a troll out of the box. He also has better will saves, making it less likely that a party will just yawn and dominate/sleep him.

Alternatively, throw casters at the enemies that can ignore the summoned creatures long enough to lob sudden maximized fireballs, then flee. Villain escalation is a perfectly normal part of heroic stories, but you should be careful to depict it as such, and not as the DM's private revenge.

So my problems are dealing with summoning, dealing with impossibly high ACs (in the 30s at 10th level), spell effects that (when combined through 2-3 casters) inflict close to 100 points of damage/round, and having monsters that can do some significant damage to a character before getting turned into ground beef by summoned creatures.

Retreater

For summoned monsters, dispel magic is the way to go. Try babaus - they get it at will.

It sounds like the encounters you've been throwing are too generic.

Have you tried throwing incorporeal undead at the party? Don't alert them to their presence, just have them wake up and start taking stat damage in the middle of the night, with no visible source. The undead remain underground, attacking from cover, and do this incessantly. Sure, they can levitate or whatever, but how many days can they keep it up for before exhaustion sets in? Their enemies never tire, never sleep, and return each time they are chased away. (Obviously this encounter needs to take place many days' travel from towns or aid, or it will be meaningless.)

Have you tried challenging them with numbers? A single level 1 battle sorcerer or warmage is EL 1. Using the doubling rules, x2 = +2 EL, so a level 11 encounter can have 16 level 1 mages. Surround the party, give them all improved initiative, and have them cast magic missile on the same target, with a few reserving missiles to disrupt the party's spellcasting.

While you do all this, though, always keep in mind a few basic rules. Often characters win because the players are privy to knowledge that they should not be. Enforce metagaming rules strictly. The players know that demons are easier to kill with cold iron, but the characters don't know that unless they have the knowledge ranks. The players might know that whatever they face has an average AC of X and hit points from Y-Z, but the characters don't know that.

Of course this goes both ways - you shouldn't have an enemy that uses precisely the right amount of force needed to incapacitate the PCs, because the enemy has no idea. An enemy usually veers towards overkill because he wants to be certain the PCs are dead.
 
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Andre said:
For example, shadows in packs can be extremely dangerous. Touch attacks, incoporeal, flight, essentially invisible in dimly lit areas, strength damage. One greater shadow is only CR 8. Try using a dozen, hitting from all sides, in a cramped location, and the party could be in trouble.

Shadows are pretty evil. They sap the fighter-types' ability to do lots of damage, and a couple of good hits from one can kill the arcane casters (who have likely totally dumped Strength).
 

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