When the PCs Can Beat Everything

I skimed the thread and saw lots of CharOp recommendations.. which work wonders for one session. After that you get into an arms race of who can build the best combat monster...

My recommendations follow a question:

How many encounters per day does the party handle?

If your answer is less than 4, bump the number of encounters up to at least 5.
Remember that the CR system assumes that a CR equivelent encounter will use up 25% of the normal parties resources. Which means with 6 characters your group can blow through 3 encounters and still be ready to continue fighting.

My last session concluded an adventuring day where the PC's dealt with 8 encounters. The final battle was an epic fight with the group of 7 PCs struggling to take out the CR+3 BBEG.


The other recommendation, plus up the minion count. With every BBG have a gaggle of CR-4 minions around to soak up attacks, create flanking, and otherwise harrass the PCs.
 

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Primitive Screwhead said:
I skimed the thread and saw lots of CharOp recommendations.. which work wonders for one session. After that you get into an arms race of who can build the best combat monster...

This is commonly asserted, but I do have to mention that in over a decade of actual DMing experience I have yet to have more than two "arms race" problems (both of which were nipped in the bud.) A slight improvement over the PCs will stoke their competitiveness. A completely crushing defeat will underscore the fact that it is not in anybody's interests, from a metagame point of view, to force you to play hardball. If you hand one out early on, or make sure people know you can, then you can focus on the story and RP without being bothered by such concerns.

Campaigns work best when the DM is much more competent than the players and everyone acknowledges it. That's not to say they can't work otherwise, just that escalation is a nonissue if the players have no doubt from the start that causing that kind of trouble will only lead to their ruin.
 

There is much wisdom to be found here-

2342491337_f48c3013d8.jpg


http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=64
 

Dust of Disappearance? Greater Invisibility? At that level, there's no reason you have to turn visible.

The druid's Faerie Fire is a good reason.

And what about my suggestion of wraithstrike? It solves the AC problem perfectly, but I notice you didn't address it.

Sorry. Whatever Wraithstrike and Aberrant Trolls are, they're not in any book I own. Our game is more or less restricted to Core Rules only, for players and the DM.

How many encounters per day does the party handle?

If your answer is less than 4, bump the number of encounters up to at least 5.
Remember that the CR system assumes that a CR equivelent encounter will use up 25% of the normal parties resources.

I try to get in 4-5 encounters per day. But apparently the encounters I'm throwing aren't challenging enough. Five easy encounters aren't going to wear down any group.



I was looking at a few encounters for next session and wondering what you guys thought. Most of these are in the EL 12-14 range. This is for a volcanic type dungeon.

8 average salamanders
The floor in this chamber is actually just a thin crust of cooled rock over a pool of lava. Characters walking on it must succeed on a Reflex save or fall through the cracks that form when more than 100 pounds of pressure is applied to more than 5 feet. Fortunately, this can be avoided. The party's rogue (or flying character) can go across the pool, and enter the next room in the keep. There is a lever to lower a bridge. Unfortunately, there are two fire giants standing guard. Characters who begin to puncture the crust of rock get the attention of 8 average salamanders, who break through the crust to attack. These do not use spears but instead use grappling tactics to pull characters into the lava.

2 fire giants, rakshasa
The rakshasa is invisible and has cast Protection from Good on the two fire giants (making them immune from contact with summoned creatures). He casts Protection from Energy (cold) on the fire giants. He also casts haste on the fire giants, improving their AC and granting them an extra attack. (He's probably had several rounds to prepare since the fight in the previous room.

2 juvenile red dragons, 1 young adult red dragon.
This encounter will take place inside a massive lava chamber. The characters will be walking on a fairly wide (20 ft) ledge that spirals up to the caldera of the volcano. The juvenile dragons will stay out of reach, doing strafing runs with their breath weapons. The young adult will attempt to bull rush characters into the lava pool below or snatch and drop into the lava. They will stay out of reach unless one of the juvenile dragons are killed. If this happens the other juvenile will fly back to the nest and the mother dragon will land and attempt to kill the party.

6 greater shadows
The characters are passing through a 5 ft wide tunnel. Shadows come out of both walls to attack each character. They use the wall as cover, attacking and then retreating into the walls.


Let me know what you think of these encounters.

Retreater
 

Retreater said:
The druid's Faerie Fire is a good reason.

True, but Faerie Fire has a very small AoE (5' radius burst). You need to pretty much know exactly where your target is when you throw it. Good reason to have the party being hit by 2 or 3 spread-out spellcasters, and to cast spells that don't create a visible line back to their point of origin (e.g., Fireball). (And, besides, a round that the druid spends casting Faerie Fire is a round he's not doing other shenanigans. ;) )

It seems like a lot of the issues you've been having do revolve around the party significantly outnumbering the bad guys, which several posters have already discussed.
 

My party is very optimized and hasn't taken a lot of damage lately. The fighter is a tank with 120+ hp and AC 30+, enlarged, with spiked chain, and extends a terrible umbrella of protection. But if he can't defend his friends... Basically I'm challenging the fighter by going after the weaker characters. The player keepts telling me I need to double the number of enemies, where are the real bad guys, and nobody has taken any damage yet...

I also like to use terrain. The party (levels 9-12) is on the Plane of Fire, in a salamander temple. Small tunnels. They fight a noble salamander, six normal salamanders and seven flamebrother salamanders plus two flamefiends. They quickly finish the group with two ice storms and the archer dealing around 70 points of damage per round. Then they realize a second noble salamander has summonned a huge fire elemental in the tunnel behind their back. The elemental has two slams at +17 and deals 4d6+4 each to archer and wizard. It can't be flanked as it blocks the tunnel. The noble salamander cannot be reached. They fighters fall back. The noble salamander casts fireball. Since they are on the plane of fire, the fireball is maximized and enlarged. All enemies are immune to fire. 60 points of damage on a failed save. They start healing each other and moving away from the elemental because they can't kill it in one blow. Another maximized and enlarged fireball. The cleric has reached -29, the wizard has barely survived with 11 hp (rescued by new magic items from the Magic Item Compendium). Eight new flamebrother salamanders are climbing out of the lava, the huge elemental still has twelve rounds to go, and there's one last fireball waiting for the party.

Suddenly everything is changed.

Check out my City of Brass sessions.

Some sessions back four huge earth elementals bursting out of the ground because they were guarding the Dread Pagoda (first encounter of the third part in the arc of Sehan Dungeon adventures)... The party had to retreat, fearing for their lives. 15 ft. reach, awesome damage, no time to buff before combat starts, going for the weak guys... It all came together.
 
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kensanata said:
Some sessions back four huge earth elementals bursting out of the ground because they were guarding the Dread Pagoda (first encounter of the third part in the arc of Sehan Dungeon adventures)... The party had to retreat, fearing for their lives. 15 ft. reach, awesome damage, no time to buff before combat starts, going for the weak guys... It all came together.

An Alienist summoning up Pseudonatural Earth Elementals can be a rude surprise. Those are the last critters you'd ever want to be able to use True Strike! Huge / Elder Earth Elementals are pretty buff. Adding other templates to them, such as Half-Fiendish, can really tweak them out.

Support characters for the enemies can also be unpleasant. Having an Evil High Priest with a half-dozen 'cultists' (low level Adepts or lesser Clerics) who buff him and other big allies can really make for a difference. Even little stuff like Aid Other actions can tweak the dynamic slightly.

Protection from X spells vs. the summoned critters seem like a decent option, but rather than have it be a dispellable spell, consider using a monster that already has a similar effect, such as some sort of fallen Celestial BBEG, perhaps an 'ex-Planetar' that has been corrupted and is currently manipulating a cult of similarly fallen priests of one of the local good dieties that he has misled into a heretical variation on their original faith. There aren't enough adventures based around killing angels who've gone bad. :)
 

Retreater said:
Sorry. Whatever Wraithstrike and Aberrant Trolls are, they're not in any book I own. Our game is more or less restricted to Core Rules only, for players and the DM.

Wraithstrike is in the Spell Compendium and is widely considered to be an extremely broken spell. I think he meant Aberrant troll as in a troll that wasn't normal, not as in a specific type of troll. Since Trolls aren't normally casters, having one that was, would be an "aberration".

RE: Your "scaling" idea tying everything to what the PCs can do.

I do not like it personally. It homogenizes things too much. Applying it as a rough guide wouldn't hurt, but you shouldn't reduce the monsters to simply X*Y.

Retreater said:
I was looking at a few encounters for next session and wondering what you guys thought. Most of these are in the EL 12-14 range. This is for a volcanic type dungeon.

8 average salamanders
The floor in this chamber is actually just a thin crust of cooled rock over a pool of lava. Characters walking on it must succeed on a Reflex save or fall through the cracks that form when more than 100 pounds of pressure is applied to more than 5 feet. Fortunately, this can be avoided. The party's rogue (or flying character) can go across the pool, and enter the next room in the keep. There is a lever to lower a bridge. Unfortunately, there are two fire giants standing guard. Characters who begin to puncture the crust of rock get the attention of 8 average salamanders, who break through the crust to attack. These do not use spears but instead use grappling tactics to pull characters into the lava.

2 fire giants, rakshasa
The rakshasa is invisible and has cast Protection from Good on the two fire giants (making them immune from contact with summoned creatures). He casts Protection from Energy (cold) on the fire giants. He also casts haste on the fire giants, improving their AC and granting them an extra attack. (He's probably had several rounds to prepare since the fight in the previous room.

2 juvenile red dragons, 1 young adult red dragon.
This encounter will take place inside a massive lava chamber. The characters will be walking on a fairly wide (20 ft) ledge that spirals up to the caldera of the volcano. The juvenile dragons will stay out of reach, doing strafing runs with their breath weapons. The young adult will attempt to bull rush characters into the lava pool below or snatch and drop into the lava. They will stay out of reach unless one of the juvenile dragons are killed. If this happens the other juvenile will fly back to the nest and the mother dragon will land and attempt to kill the party.

6 greater shadows
The characters are passing through a 5 ft wide tunnel. Shadows come out of both walls to attack each character. They use the wall as cover, attacking and then retreating into the walls.

We need harder numbers on the characters to really judge. The fire giants and the Rakshasa could probably use a couple more minion types. Perhaps some barbarian ogres, something to suck up attacks and spread the damage around a bit. Toss in some archers as well. You might want to customize the feats on the giants to give them something like Awesome Blow.

AWESOME BLOW [GENERAL, FIGHTER]

Prerequisites: Str 25, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, size Large or larger.

Benefit: As a standard action, the creature may choose to subtract 4 from its melee attack roll and deliver an awesome blow. If the creature hits a corporeal opponent smaller than itself with an awesome blow, its opponent must succeed on a Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the attacking creature’s choice and fall prone. The attacking creature can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the attacking creature than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle.

The regular Salamanders on their own aren't likely to slow down the party much. I'd make it more like two Nobles and 3-4 normal. Have the normal salamanders use alternative tactics like tripping, disarming or grappling. Since those sorts of attacks can bypass or negate a lot of the advantages that PCs can have. Use the normal salamanders to tie up the front line fighters so the Nobles can go after the druid and wiz. Don't forget the Noble's SLAs like fireball and summoning huge fire elementals.

I'd go with a mated pair of Young Adult Reds, rather than the two juveniles and the Young Adult. Don't forget they cast as 5th lvl sorcs. Lots of good buff spells for the dragons out of that.

Set said:
An Alienist summoning up Pseudonatural Earth Elementals can be a rude surprise. Those are the last critters you'd ever want to be able to use True Strike! Huge / Elder Earth Elementals are pretty buff. Adding other templates to them, such as Half-Fiendish, can really tweak them out.

According to RAW, the Alienist in 3.5 can not summon non-fiendish/celestial creatures, since the pseudonatural template replaces those templates. I think this gimps an already substandard choice (summoning is one of the weakest specialties for a wiz), particularly since at higher levels the elementals are hands down the best summons. Personally, I don't think tacking on the pseudonatural template makes much of a difference for most of the stuff. But if you are going to permit an alienist to summon non-templated creatures, then it should probably be without the pseudonatural template.
 
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0. An audit. They've said that they want more exciting combats, eh? Well, tell them that you need to see their sheets to meet that need for them. Take a copy home, pour over it for each character's weakness. And then systematically hit every one. It's a classic of the genre. And, it will prevent maximizing, because they'll have to start devoting resources to defense. Plus, if they're making a mistake, you can point it out privately and get it corrected.

1. Put them on a timeline. Paizo's first "Falcon's Hollow" adventure has people dying of the plague while the party races to get a cure's ingredients. The good PCs simply cannot take their sweet time with that adventure because they KNOW people are dying while they optimize. Alternatively, in a standard "rescue the captive" narrative, have the characters have nightmares of what is happening to the NPC while they dawdle. Let them get their spells back, but make them think about whether they can get further with the resources they have. Such resource management will have them be more challenged.

2. They're 10th level. Spend a few sessions emphasizing how famous they are. They deserve it! And now villains have an excellent "scouting report" on those pesky heroes likely to ruin their plans. And how to defeat them.

3. Use charms and dominates to get PCs vs. PCs going... and every resource they waste fixing that problem is a resource they're not using on the monsters.

4. Invisible, flying summoners with silent spell. Summoning doesn't dispel invisibility.

5. Divide and Conquor. Use wall/cloud spells and blade barriers to divide the party. Have one group be outnumbered and fighting for their lives. Have the other group behind the wall facing a handful of monsters simply there to delay them. (They're waiting for the first group to win and become reinforcements.) The PCs'll be desperate to save their companions.

6. Hit them where it hurts: take relatives hostage and threaten familiars and companions. Make them spend resources to protect their loved ones, just like Superheroes have to. Why do you think so many of them wear masks?

7. Describe everything, label nothing. Look up the Knowledge and Spellcraft skill rules. If the character hasn't faced it before or seen that spell before, they don't know a thing about it. And if they meta-game, feel free to ask them how their character knows to do that. Force them to spend actions to gain knowledge of vulnerabilities and weaknesses.

8. Surprise, surprise, surprise.... If a party can prep and the monsters cannot, the PCs have a huge advantage. A volcano? Seriously? They're going to prepare every cold spell they know along with every resist fire spell. Make the dragons masochistic white dragons with fire resistance and you're on to something. (The fire causes pain, but not hit point damage, say.)
 

roguerouge said:
0. An audit. They've said that they want more exciting combats, eh? Well, tell them that you need to see their sheets to meet that need for them. Take a copy home, pour over it for each character's weakness. And then systematically hit every one. It's a classic of the genre. And, it will prevent maximizing, because they'll have to start devoting resources to defense. Plus, if they're making a mistake, you can point it out privately and get it corrected.

1. Put them on a timeline. Paizo's first "Falcon's Hollow" adventure has people dying of the plague while the party races to get a cure's ingredients. The good PCs simply cannot take their sweet time with that adventure because they KNOW people are dying while they optimize. Alternatively, in a standard "rescue the captive" narrative, have the characters have nightmares of what is happening to the NPC while they dawdle. Let them get their spells back, but make them think about whether they can get further with the resources they have. Such resource management will have them be more challenged.

2. They're 10th level. Spend a few sessions emphasizing how famous they are. They deserve it! And now villains have an excellent "scouting report" on those pesky heroes likely to ruin their plans. And how to defeat them.

3. Use charms and dominates to get PCs vs. PCs going... and every resource they waste fixing that problem is a resource they're not using on the monsters.

4. Invisible, flying summoners with silent spell. Summoning doesn't dispel invisibility.

5. Divide and Conquor. Use wall/cloud spells and blade barriers to divide the party. Have one group be outnumbered and fighting for their lives. Have the other group behind the wall facing a handful of monsters simply there to delay them. (They're waiting for the first group to win and become reinforcements.) The PCs'll be desperate to save their companions.

6. Hit them where it hurts: take relatives hostage and threaten familiars and companions. Make them spend resources to protect their loved ones, just like Superheroes have to. Why do you think so many of them wear masks?

7. Describe everything, label nothing. Look up the Knowledge and Spellcraft skill rules. If the character hasn't faced it before or seen that spell before, they don't know a thing about it. And if they meta-game, feel free to ask them how their character knows to do that. Force them to spend actions to gain knowledge of vulnerabilities and weaknesses.

8. Surprise, surprise, surprise.... If a party can prep and the monsters cannot, the PCs have a huge advantage. A volcano? Seriously? They're going to prepare every cold spell they know along with every resist fire spell. Make the dragons masochistic white dragons with fire resistance and you're on to something. (The fire causes pain, but not hit point damage, say.)

I find a lot of this to be needlessly confrontational vs the players. The objective of a D&D game is not to "Beat" the players. While a DM shouldn't avoid hitting characters weaknesses, the sessions shouldn't be built around using them to screw the characters either. The DM has essentially infinite resources and infinite control over the situations. So they can always beat down the PCs. The challenge is to come up with something challenging and interesting, not simply to defeat the characters.

#6 In particular leads to characters with no backgrounds, no histories and no attachments. The occasional hostage situation or kidnapping is fine, but histories shouldn't be used solely as a club to beat the characters with.

#7 Leads square into the classic "player vs character knowledge" argument that has been raging since about 5 min after D&D was first invented. Personally, unless it's something particularly funky and mysterious, I don't see any reason most creatures and spells aren't going to at least, have been heard of by experienced adventurers.
 

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