When the PCs Can Beat Everything

[roguerouge]

I find a lot of this to be needlessly confrontational vs the players. The objective of a D&D game is not to "Beat" the players. While a DM shouldn't avoid hitting characters weaknesses, the sessions shouldn't be built around using them to screw the characters either. The DM has essentially infinite resources and infinite control over the situations. So they can always beat down the PCs. The challenge is to come up with something challenging and interesting, not simply to defeat the characters.

For the record, I don't play the game to beat PCs and I've never DM'ed a TPK. Please read my sig.

The OP said he wanted ways to challenge his players in combat. That's what I'm providing advice to help him to do.

Let's see: Putting them on a time line is simply an unusual challenge. Intelligent villains who know about the strengths and weaknesses of famous heroes is simply good storytelling with 3-D NPCs. Enchantments, silent summons, and battlefield control spells respond to his request for "core-only" tactics, and those are pretty vanilla tactics to boot.

#6 In particular leads to characters with no backgrounds, no histories and no attachments. The occasional hostage situation or kidnapping is fine, but histories shouldn't be used solely as a club to beat the characters with.

They're 10th level and he'd just be using this tactic now, so we concur, obviously. It's not below the belt to make use of character backgrounds after the months and years it takes to get characters to 10th level.

#7 Leads square into the classic "player vs character knowledge" argument that has been raging since about 5 min after D&D was first invented. Personally, unless it's something particularly funky and mysterious, I don't see any reason most creatures and spells aren't going to at least, have been heard of by experienced adventurers.

I wrote: "If the character hasn't faced it before or seen that spell before, they don't know a thing about it." So we largely agree again.

And if they haven't directly faced it, it's perfectly legitimate to have them use the skill that's supposed to provide exactly this kind of information, along with bardic knowledge. If you need a justification, it's the difference between having heard of the spell and being able to remember the information in 3 seconds while ducking energy missiles.

So, clearly, your problem is with either the audit or the masochistic dragons.

The masochistic dragons was a joke to make a point about the combat-readiness of a prepared vs. an unprepared party. I hope to the Old Ones that you're not upset about THAT!

The audit concept is simply knowing exactly what the PCs can and can't do and forcing the players to think creatively to cover their weak points. Opponents who strike weak points is basic good tactics, basic good storytelling, and basic to providing a challenge to players who are asking the DM to fast-forward combats.

 

[WizarDru]

The druid's Faerie Fire is a good reason.

The targeting limitation has been mentioned; SR should also not be ignored. By 10th level, the party should be coming up against opponents with SR with regularity (including NPCs). A 1st level spell like FF is often just ignored by the appropriate creatures. It should work sometimes, but not every time.

A large part of your problem sounds like you're suffering from the classic 'Eggshells with Hammers' syndrome, which many D&D creatures suffer from. That is to say, they can dish it out, but they can't take it. Try to select creatures with better defenses, including high HP. I notice that your enemy spell-casters aren't using one of THE most important defensive spells a wizard/sorceror has: MIRROR IMAGE.

Second of all: area and targeted dispels are not cheap shots, now: they are essential battlefield tactics for BOTH SIDES. Oh, and guess what happens to Summoned Creatures? If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature. POP! A lot of utility spells don't scale very well and can be easily dispelled....including Magic Circles. And while we're talking about it, Dispel Good is a fine way to send beasties home, too.

Sorry. Whatever Wraithstrike and Aberrant Trolls are, they're not in any book I own. Our game is more or less restricted to Core Rules only, for players and the DM.

Wraithstrike is widely considered, as Rackhir noted, to be horribly broken. Do no use it. Especially as this opens the door for the players to use it, too. And as Rackhir points out, this would create a confrontational tone which really benefits no one.

8 average salamanders
The floor in this chamber is actually just a thin crust of cooled rock over a pool of lava. Characters walking on it must succeed on a Reflex save or fall through the cracks that form when more than 100 pounds of pressure is applied to more than 5 feet. Fortunately, this can be avoided. The party's rogue (or flying character) can go across the pool, and enter the next room in the keep. There is a lever to lower a bridge. Unfortunately, there are two fire giants standing guard. Characters who begin to puncture the crust of rock get the attention of 8 average salamanders, who break through the crust to attack. These do not use spears but instead use grappling tactics to pull characters into the lava.

Good start, but needs more urgency. Unhurried players aren't challenged players. Give a group with two or more spellcasters five minutes and they'll get across in a variety of ways. Add in a lava burst or cave-in that traps them and adds a 'get out in time' factor, and you're doing better. Second, you've stocked the room with average salamanders...at CR6, even with the advantageous environment, these are SPEED BUMPS to a 10th level party, let alone a 6 man party. Taking away their spears and having them grapple isn't bad, but unless the PCs are forced to cross the floor, they pose no threat. These guys are fodder for ranged attacking. Either advance them (more HD, maybe a couple of spellcasters), bolster them with a couple of noble salamanders or make it so that flight and spider-climb is dangerous and problematic. Otherwise the party can just side-step them and then kill them at range.

Alternately, change THESE salamanders up. Normal salamanders have Multiattack, even though they don't have three natural attacks. Give them two claw attacks instead of the spear and just substitue the same attack value. Give them 10' reach to make them surprisingly dangerous. Have SOME grapple and some attack. Remember that grappling makes the target VERY vulnerable to outside attack, meaning that the salamanders are opening themselves up to pain from the rest of the party while doing it.

Further, make sure you know all the effects of extreme heat on players. Those melee characters in heavy armor? They're going to be in for a world of pain without protection against the heat. Throw in smoke and you've got a crisis. Sure, most of these effects can be countermanded with magic...but if your spellcasters aren't properly prepared, they'll find out the hard way.

2 fire giants, rakshasa
The rakshasa is invisible and has cast Protection from Good on the two fire giants (making them immune from contact with summoned creatures). He casts Protection from Energy (cold) on the fire giants. He also casts haste on the fire giants, improving their AC and granting them an extra attack. (He's probably had several rounds to prepare since the fight in the previous room.

Make sure the Rakshasha is shape changed into another form. His DR 15/Good and Piercing makes him hard to hurt with weapons and his SR makes him resistant to many spells, but his low hp mean that if you use the right kind of attack to bypass that, he's very vulnerable. Giants are good opponents, especially if you have them Power Attack with their greatweapons. A massive first strike tends to put PCs on notice to defend themselves. Make sure to use their Improved Overrun to have them trample on past the defenders to get to the nice, soft spellcasters in the back, especially with their reach. Alternately, you can have them toss rocks, but this isn't all that effective a tactic, really. If possible, Have the invisible Rakshasha heal them during battle, as well.

2 juvenile red dragons, 1 young adult red dragon.

The environment isn't bad, but there's a lot of pitfalls here for the dragons...most noticeably that while they are using some clever tactics and they are strong enough to pull them off, they're not using their combat potential that heavily (though they DO have a good, hard to follow escape route) and this scenario favors the ranged attackers more than the dragons, who's poor maneuverability can work against them in the open.

6 greater shadows
The characters are passing through a 5 ft wide tunnel. Shadows come out of both walls to attack each character. They use the wall as cover, attacking and then retreating into the walls.

It's nasty, no question. I'm just not sure it's all that fair for the players. Unless there are signs of what they're going to fight or a chance to flee to a better position, this will create an untenanable "we were screwed and there was nothing we could do" situation. A better option would be to have to force the players through a series of such tunnels, and ambush them during the second or third out of say, five. They can retreat or advance to one of the open areas, but now they have to decide how to proceed, knowing the tunnels are shadowy hazards. This puts them back in control, but still maintains the threat.

 

[Jhaelen]

I need an easy fix. And the easy fix could just be that I don't enjoy running "high level" and to restart the game at 1st.

I think that's the core of your problem.

My party is very similar to yours: 8 pcs of level 9-11. A druid, a Radiant Servant of Pelor, a wilder, a kineticist, a lasher (3.0 PRC), a barbarian, two shadowdancers (one ranger, one rogue). I currently use encounters with an EL of 10 to 16 with an average of 3 encounters per day.

I found the best way to challenge them is variety: I try to use a good mix of all creature types and - as others have mentioned - tend to use larger numbers of foes.
NPCs with class levels tend to be pretty weak for their CR, monsters advanced by adding hit dice can be outright scary. And: not every encounter needs to be challenging! It's okay if they will breeze through some of them; if you're lucky they'll waste precious resources on them, making the next encounter more difficult.

Things that worked well in the past:
- incorporeal undead
- swarms
- burrowing monsters
- fast monsters with improved grab

Things that didn't:
- a 'boss' demon with minion demons (party got surprise & RSoP casting mass align weapon)
- hordes of low-CR humanoids (weren't able to hit anything)
- spellcaster with giant minions (never got close, even with resistances were wiped out fast)

However, I spend a lot of prep time designing encounters and thinking about good tactics for the enemies. I think it's likely you'll have to spend some more time, too, to be able to really compete with a party of min-maxing, tactically savvy players.

 

[doghead]

general - players

It sounds like the problem is starting to detract from your enjoyment of the game, and you are worried that your players might also be getting a bit bored. Time to sit down with them and talk it through.

Resetting to a lower level, or switching to a different game for a while are two fairly obvious solutions. Or let someone else take over the DM'ing for a while. Having a look at the problem from the other side of the screen might give you some new insights. Your players may even come up with solutions to the problem.

If the players are keen to stay with their current characters and you are keen to keep going, find out what the attraction for the players is. They may just like playing high level characters, which doesn't really get you very far. But there may be other reasons. They like playing famous characters for example. In which case, you may be able to achieve the same thing with characters of high standing, nobles or children of famous parents, etc, but at a lower level.

doghead
aka thotd

 

[moritheil]

Wraithstrike is in the Spell Compendium and is widely considered to be an extremely broken spell. I think he meant Aberrant troll as in a troll that wasn't normal, not as in a specific type of troll. Since Trolls aren't normally casters, having one that was, would be an "aberration".

The term I used was "abnormal."

It's perfectly reasonable for a DM to throw in a weird creature now and then - even if it doesn't exist in the books commonly available. As I said, the DM is expected to make new monsters to keep things fresh. Restrictions are for PCs. Granted, this does not justify DM abuse, but we take it on faith that you are not abusing your powers as a DM.

Let me know what you think of these encounters.

Retreater

If we suggest modifications to the monsters, are you going to again fall back on "I know how to modify everything, but I refuse to do so due to time or for reasons I cannot articulate?"

 

[prospero63]

When I throw "leveled" NPCs at them, I tend to give those NPCs (particularly ones that are supposed to be more than speed bumps) the same point-buy that I give the PCs. Makes it a fair fight.

I do that with *all* named bad guys. I too have a relatively large party, and if I don't it's absolutely no challenge at all to them.

And to add on the pile, quantity, quantity, quantity. If 2 bone devils are a pushover, throw 4 at them. Also, play the bad guys smart - especially on their home turf.

I'll give you an example:
[IF YOU ARE ONE OF MY PLAYERS, STOP READING NOW]

The party had gotten pretty lazy with a warlock that can cast d-door (limited range) at will. Basically every encounter they ran into they could d-door the tanks into the middle of the bad guys and start tearing the place up. Well, they left some bad guys alive, rumors started getting out and the word was sent to capture "whoever is harassing us. We want to talk to them". This is RttToEE. Well, low and behold to my surprise the party decides to go back to the main gate (where they slaughtered the entire defenses of when they first entered) for the easy pickings of what they (correctly) assume is the Earth Temple. Except that the main gate has been reinforced... by a half-fiend troll with unhallow as a spell like ability. So I'm thinking "the goal is to capture, what's an easy way to do that". Aha!! Throw unhallows with dimensional anchor tied to them. And since there's no cost involved, he might as well blanket the whole damned area. As expected the party split in two (can't bring them all in one shot) and half of them got caught with no exit, while the other half got caught with no entrance. It got dangerously close to a TPK, but in the end the party prevailed (with some assistance from an NPC that had been following them... long story). It was one of the tougher challenges they have had to face (at one point only one PC was functioning) and I think it the players had more fun than they have had in a while. Why? Because I played up that the area the bad guys were in was *their* home turf.

 

[moritheil]

Retreater,

It got dangerously close to a TPK . . . It was one of the tougher challenges they have had to face (at one point only one PC was functioning) and I think it the players had more fun than they have had in a while.

Let me reiterate that these facts are not unrelated. I think that by holding back for fear of TPK you are not allowing your players to shine.

 

[prospero63]

Retreater,

Let me reiterate that these facts are not unrelated. I think that by holding back for fear of TPK you are not allowing your players to shine.

Not sure if you meant me when you said that, but I assure you I don't hold back from a TPK (though at the same time, my objective is not to try to get a TPK either). In this case, one character died and was raised. Another died outright. A third didn't die only by virtue of the fact that he stabilized. That's half the party right there. Then you have the two that got hit by symbols of sleep (amazing how little attention characters pay when their buddies are getting slaughtered).

 

[Mark Chance]

During last night's session the party, which includes six 10th level characters, trounced every encounter I threw at them.

That gives the party an ECL of 11.2 based on level alone.

I put one at the end designed to be a tough one, which included 2 bone devils and a 13th level fighter (with really awesome stats and great equipment). This amounted to a CR 14, and it was all but over before the middle of the second round. Mind you this was after four encounters equal to the party's level.

I'm not seeing it. My initial two guess are (1) your party is over-equipped for its level and (2) you're not utilizing their opponents' abilities effectively. There's some good advice in this thread. Use it.

Also, hunt around for work done by other folks that can help save you some time on bad guy creation. This'll give you more time to concentrate on tactics.

For example: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=182249

 

[QuaziquestGM]

Print out card with the summoned critter stats, and let the other players run them when the cleric and druid make them.

As for other suggestions:

Low level characters can effectively foil high level ones.

Level 1 kobold druid in a tree on a hilltop 440 ft away targeting the pcs in think forest with entangle by calculating their position by listening to bird intruder calls. They can't see him, have no clue where he is, and he pulls the same stunt every night while they are camping. He leaves a trail for them....right into the dire bear lair or the wilowisp swamp...The pcs may think they are being targeted by a master druid....

Use more illusions. Remember that you only get to disbelive if you interact with them. They are a very effective cover for assassins.

Reread the treant entry. Their animate trees is an AOE, not a number of trees. Think really, really thick forest.

Rocs, or anything else with a snatch attack. Remember that if the pcs fail the spot check, they don't get an AoO if the roc choses to initiate graple with a touch attack before snatching and flying off over the canyon.

Incorporeal undead work really, really, well in mixed groups. They work even better with the outsider and elemental lookalikes thrown in.

Remember, not all undead are undead. Some are animated objects like bones and bedsheets.

Silence spells force % chance of spell failure for verbal spells.

Buy more monster books. 3rd party ones. 3.0 ones. poorly reviewed ones.

And there is no reason why the vampire doesn't have a pet rustmonster, or a pet flock of stirges, his babies, that have collors of Silent Stirge 15 ft radius and go hunting for camping adventurers each night, silently sucking them dry in their bedrolls before eating the clueless guard.