D&D 5E When to Roll Initiative

[Ristamar]

I really like that detailed analysis. There a two things that are making it difficult for me to to do it that way, so hopefully you can convince me there is a good solution.

1) Sometimes attacks happen in darkness and/or silence. Or in darkness and/or silence even. Occasionally, it's just physically impossible for the target of an ambush to even be aware of an attack coming their way. In such a situation, how would you deal with them winning initiative?

2) The assassin subclass seems a little weak if they can't rely on their assassinate ability kicking in. It's annoying to have phenomenal Stealth, excellent initiative, and yet still have the average person be able to sense your arrow flying at them in time enough to react 25% of the time.

I agree with both of those points. More importantly, a bad initiative roll in a perfectly executed Assassin ambush can be a total buzzkill during play. I don't mind occasionally bending the initiative rules heavily in the Assassin's favor in such instances.

 

[Valador]

1) Sometimes attacks happen in darkness and/or silence. Or in darkness and/or silence even. Occasionally, it's just physically impossible for the target of an ambush to even be aware of an attack coming their way. In such a situation, how would you deal with them winning initiative?

They would be unable to use any actions because they're still surprised, whether they go first or not. They can use reactions after their turn, if applicable, with any disadvantages associated with darkness, etc. Assuming the surprised party is a DM controlled piece, I would literally just have them be oblivious during their "turn".

 

[Pssthpok]

They would be unable to use any actions because they're still surprised, whether they go first or not. They can use reactions after their turn, if applicable, with any disadvantages associated with darkness, etc. Assuming the surprised party is a DM controlled piece, I would literally just have them be oblivious during their "turn".

This. It solves the dilemma of the target of a surprise attack winning initiative.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Thats a problem with your DM not giving you the information he should give you.

If youre rolling initiative its due to hostilities occurring. You should always know why you rolled initiative.

If it was a hidden creature initiating combat, he should state 'You hear the twang of a bow from the woods and notice an arrow screaching towards you. Roll initiative' or something similar.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. The problem is that the DM was rolling for initiative BEFORE combat started. They hadn't yet shot arrows at us. They were about to, but he was waiting for their turn in initiative order to do so. He didn't know how to use surprise properly so we were allowed to take actions during, what should have been a "surprise round" (this was a 3.5e game though, I should note...though the rules are very similar). So, instead we got:

"You are in a warehouse. You don't see or hear anything and nothing has happened. Initiative 22. What do you do?"
"Uhh...nothing, because there's nothing for me to do."
"Alright, at Initiative 19, an arrow comes out of the darkness and hits you for...10 damage. You see a human hiding behind a crate."

In theory, a "surprise round" or the inability for people to act when they are "surprised" solves this. Because you roll for initiative but then immediately fast forward to the enemies attacks so they go first.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. The problem is that the DM was rolling for initiative BEFORE combat started.

Thats when you roll initiative. Its the initiative roll that starts combat.

The DM describes why initiative is being rolled. Even surprised and hidded enemies.

'A bunch of five Orcs leap from hiding 30' away, charging you while bellowing war cries! You're all surprised. Roll iniatitive.'

Note how the Orcs dont really resolve the charge until their turn one; the DM just gives the players the information they need as to why theyre rolling initiaitive, and to react to on their first turns.

Omitting that information is poor DMing.

They hadn't yet shot arrows at us. They were about to, but he was waiting for their turn in initiative order to do so.

Thats just semantics. If he was going to have them fire arrows at you on their turn he should have given you that information. Its no different to the other way around:

'PC: (Hidden) I fire an arrows at the bad guys!
DM: Ok, they look up in shock at the twang of the bow, and notice the arrow headed their way. Theyre surprised. Roll initiative.'

The DM failed to give you the information.

1) Sometimes attacks happen in darkness and/or silence. Or in darkness and/or silence even. Occasionally, it's just physically impossible for the target of an ambush to even be aware of an attack coming their way. In such a situation, how would you deal with them winning initiative?

I find it extremely hard to conceptualise a situation that occurs in total darkness and silence where there is no possible method of discovering a threat (or reacting to it). Invisible silenced and totally imperceptable arrows fired from an equally invisible, silenced imperceptible assasin.

If such a scenario existed, then it would be an extreme outlier, and even then im sure I could explain it narratively.

I mean I can narratively describe a person surviving a fall into lava, or getting struck by a 5 ton frost giants axe. This cant be that difficult.

The assassin subclass seems a little weak if they can't rely on their assassinate ability kicking in.

I disagree. It does kick in. Just not as reliably as some people (wrongly) thought it did.

 

[BoldItalic]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. The problem is that the DM was rolling for initiative BEFORE combat started. They hadn't yet shot arrows at us. They were about to, but he was waiting for their turn in initiative order to do so. He didn't know how to use surprise properly so we were allowed to take actions during, what should have been a "surprise round" (this was a 3.5e game though, I should note...though the rules are very similar).

The rules are different. In a 3.5e game, surprise rounds happen and attacks are resolved before initiative is rolled, whereas in 5e, surprise rounds have been abolished and initiative is rolled after the first hostile action is announced but before any attacks are resolved.

It's the announcing of a hostile act that triggers 'the start of combat' and rolling of initiative, not its resolution. It's not resolved until the first round, when surprise is considered and reactions are possibly important. This allows for individuals to be surprised or not, rather than a whole 'side'.

 

[Flamestrike]

The rules are different. In a 3.5e game, surprise rounds happen and attacks are resolved before initiative is rolled, whereas in 5e, surprise rounds have been abolished and initiative is rolled after the first hostile action is announced but before any attacks are resolved.

It's the announcing of a hostile act that triggers 'the start of combat' and rolling of initiative, not its resolution. It's not resolved until the first round, when surprise is considered and reactions are possibly important. This allows for individuals to be surprised or not, rather than a whole 'side'.

And its up to the DM to give the players ebnough information to know why initiative has been called for and that combat has started.

The merchant stading 10' away from you whom you were just speaking to goes to draw his sword with a look of evil in his eyes. Roll initiative.

As you walk along the forest path, you hear the chattering of the familiar sounds of the goblin language, about 30-40' to the north of the trail. You are all surprised. Roll initiative.

You stand up and take aim with your bow from your position of hiding against the unsuspecting orcs. They're surprised. Roll initiative.

You hear the sharp inhalation of breath next to you, and the air swirls around giving you some indication of a presence nearby that is not visible but coming right for you. You're surprised, roll initiative.

You open the door revealing an Ogre standing 20' away. It bellows in anger and charges you. Roll initiative.

As you stand in the warehouse reading your map and trying to locate the secret passage marked on it, the whistle of arrows fills the air. Instinctively you sense movement coming from around you near the darkened corner of the building behind some crates. You're surprised, roll initiative.

Your trusted companions face twists into a sneer for some inexplicable reason. With a snarl, he lunges at you. Roll initative.

You creep up to the drow mage under the effects of your invisibility, and draw back your bow to assasinate him. His ears prick up at the sound of your bow cocking back. He's surprised. Roll initiative.

Heis eyes narrow and he starts casting a spell. Roll initiative

Its really not that hard to narrate almost any situation you can think of.

People need to remember combat in 5E is super deadly and rarely lasts more than 3-5 rounds. As written, surprised critters can get two whole rounds of full attacks levelled against them by the entire opposing side before responding (every creature in 5E has 3E pounce).

TL;DR: Initiative is rolled when a hostile action is declared. That hostile action is very broadly narrated to commence (but is not yet resolved till the persons turn, and they can always change their minds which is then narratted accordingly). This makes it clear to everyone why combat has started, and by whom.

 

[bgbarcus]

The 5e rules should have eliminated the use of the word initiative and replaced it with turn order.

It seems to me that most of the confusion around this topic is the expectations left over from prior editions having a sperate surprise round. With the elimination of the surprise round this would have been a good chance to add clarity by getting rid of initiative and calling it what it really is, the order your character's turn is played.

Flamestrike has done an exceptional job of explaining how the first round of combat is started in 5e. As he has repeatedly stressed, the narration can be a key part of understanding the mechanics of initiating combat with and without surprise involved.

The only thing missing in those narrations is whether Stealth vs. Perception rolls were used. The DM should use the rolls in any potential surprise situation. Otherwise, characters that have spent resources (e.g., Alert feat) to become extra stealthy or perceptive feel as if they've wasted those resources.

Applying surprise individually and using the 5e rules for the opening round of combat works very well. The high damage potential of 5e combatants means a separate surprise round where the whole party is surprised and then goes after the monsters in the turn order is ripe for quickly killing characters before they get any chance to react to the attack. That would make Perception the rough equivalent of a save or die roll.

With assassins, they are expected to have high dexterity and often will get the first turn in combat. The extra assassination damage will apply in most surprise cases. I haven't run the numbers but it will likely apply more often than the 1e percentage rolls for assassination.

 

[billd91]

The rules are different. In a 3.5e game, surprise rounds happen and attacks are resolved before initiative is rolled, whereas in 5e, surprise rounds have been abolished and initiative is rolled after the first hostile action is announced but before any attacks are resolved.

It's the announcing of a hostile act that triggers 'the start of combat' and rolling of initiative, not its resolution. It's not resolved until the first round, when surprise is considered and reactions are possibly important. This allows for individuals to be surprised or not, rather than a whole 'side'.

The rules are a lot more similar than you're implying here. It boils down to creatures that are aware of their opponents get to act in the first round of the encounter and ones that aren't, and are thus surprised, don't. Exactly how initiative rolls are handled are immaterial. You could choose to roll only for the creatures who can act and roll for the rest at the start of the round in which they can act or roll for everybody as long as you skip the ones who are surprised that first round. You may have a little more info to work with on the PC side of the screen with the latter because you'll know when in the order your surprised buddies will be able to go, but it's hardly a game-breaking difference.

The main difference is that in 3e, you only got a partial round in that surprise round while in 5e, you get your full round.

 

[robus]

Thats when you roll initiative. Its the initiative roll that starts combat.

I'd disagree with this. Initiative is a mechanic that is utilized once combat starts - but it doesn't "start combat".
There needs to be some triggering action that begins the combat and rolling initiative is not it.

A combatant drawing a sword, an arrow thudding into the wall next to you, these are the triggering actions that to me indicate that initiative is rolled.

The players have got the picture and it's combat time. Roll initiative.