D&D General When Was it Decided Fighters Should Suck at Everything but Combat?

Isn't modern D&D more like "everything except maybe the caster classes are fighters, and the fighter is the most badass fighter"? Usually they all can hold their own in an armed conflict, right in the thick of things. That's what I would call a fighter. So the non-fighter classes are basically the fighters who also have some other significant skills, while the Fighter class represents the combat monsters. Boromir could be some kind of Paladin (not doing magic stuff, but also being, in theory a face), Legolas and Aragorn are certainly rangers, the hobbits are probably more like rogues or bards ... okay, Gimli may just be a fighter.
 

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You are asking about the early game and what went wrong. Adding skills was exactly that. That is a different argument than "skills are a bad thing" generally in D&D, but for the game that D&D was when it was created, skills undermined one of the core tenets of play: the players' skill mattered most.

That might be an argument for intellectual or social skills in the way OD&D handled them; it wasn't a good answer to other sorts of physical skill, any more than it would have been representing combat with purely player narration.
 



Aren't fighters supposed to be good at fighting? Thieves are good at thieving and wizards are good as wizarding. Are the other classes better at fighting than the fighter is at doing the other things?

I wonder if part of the idea of this being a problem is that there are too many 'fighter' classes. Rangers, paladins, and barbarians are all supposed to be good fighting people and something more. Is there the same issues with the wizard, sorcerer, and warlock?
 

Personally, I'm not a fan of martial classes having access to magic, unless someone chooses to multiclass.

I'm fine with fighters being solely good at fighting. It seems appropriate.

But now everyone has spells, or magic-like abilities, and the cat has been out of the bag for a while, so no going back in.
 
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Isn't modern D&D more like "everything except maybe the caster classes are fighters, and the fighter is the most badass fighter"? Usually they all can hold their own in an armed conflict, right in the thick of things. That's what I would call a fighter. So the non-fighter classes are basically the fighters who also have some other significant skills, while the Fighter class represents the combat monsters. Boromir could be some kind of Paladin (not doing magic stuff, but also being, in theory a face), Legolas and Aragorn are certainly rangers, the hobbits are probably more like rogues or bards ... okay, Gimli may just be a fighter.
Actually, I think the bigger problem with 5e (and 2024 exacerbates it) is that there's only TWO classes in the game for people who don't want to play a "magic-user:" Fighter and Rogue (as long as you avoid the magical subclasses. Monks have Ki abilities and Barbarians have access to pseudo-magical powers in the form of rage. And then there are 9 spell-casters, of which 6 are variants of "fighter-mage."

If you don't want to sling spells or have built-in supernatural powers, you're basically stuck choosing between "Fighter" and "Rogue." If that's going to be the case, I contend that the first needs to be more versatile to give proper representation to its archetypal fictional examples.
 

What does everyone else think? Have fighters been shortchanged by being pigeon-holed as "the meat-shield class?"
I think the fairly obvious is that nobody decided this explicitly. Rather, it was the byproduct of other decision that had unintended side effects.

The problem was the inclusion of skills at all.
This is the big, granddaddy reason. Once you started working with skills, largely starting with adding the thief, someone was gonna be the skill monkey and someone else was gonna not be when the classes had even footing on this before.

And 3e codifies the problem by giving Fighters just 2 skill points/level, while the renamed Rogue got 8(!). Now, an argument can be made that the rogue's thievery skills should be lumped into one just called "thievery," but I digress.
When going to the skill system, the rogue had to be loaded with skills to continue to do the thing they could do before - that meant a lot of skill points to spend. Everyone else got a lot less.
Then take a look at what the fighter gained in 3e compared to everyone else. Nobody gains feats like the fighter does. Between level-based and bonus feats, they get a ton more than anyone else - meaning they can develop weapon prowess in more than one weapon, a couple of fighting styles, or maybe a weapon and a bunch of general feats to improve their saves or skills. Having just 2 skill points per level seemed OK - a full BAB and tons of feats would be powerful enough for general class balance.
At least that was the potential that was seen. Then the poop hit the fan.
Feats didn't compete with full casters because they didn't scale with level - they had to be bought to stack up abilities.
Players optimized. They dumped Int so the whole Combat Expertise chain tended to be moot. They may even have LOST skill points from it. Players didn't branch out with general feats, but focused on specific combat trees for more exploits or DPR. Too many feats gave out conditional benefits that depended on the style of campaign. Lots of humanoid opponents optimized to fight with their weapons? Improved Disarm can be good. Few humanoids compared to monstrous opponents? Improved Disarm is useless. And let's not forget that just doing hit point damage is the best tactic of all if you want to actually defeat something...
And I think it's mainly a case of unintended consequences. They didn't realize that the 3e feat structure wasn't gonna work out as expected when they published it.
 

Just wanted to expand on this point. The issue wasn't that 4e didn't have outside combat resources- it totally did (Rituals, Martial Practices, Feats, Utility Powers). The problem came that, when you had a decision point for say, a new Feat or Utility Power that added out of combat utility (say, the Animal Empathy Feat, which granted +2 to Nature checks, and allowed you to use Nature as Insight when dealing with Beasts or Arcane Porter, which allowed your Familiar to carry a 5 lb. object), most players realized that they didn't know when/if such things would be useful. But they absolutely knew that Backstabber that turned d6's of Sneak Attack into d8's or Battlewise, allowing you to use Wisdom to determine initiative, would come up, because combat was inevitable, and the failure state of combat was perceived to be much worse than the failure state of a non-combat test or Skill Challenge (not always true, you could die in a Skill Challenge, but I only saw that one time during Scales of War).

It was because 4e presented it as a choice between "choose combat bonus" vs. "choose non-combat bonus" that was the real problem. You can still see this in 5e, where I've rarely seen anyone take the flavorful non-combat Feats (beyond things that boost Perception/Investigation like Observant) over new combat options (something exacerbated by the fact that you get fewer Feats which compete with ability score improvements). The difference is mostly that classes come packaged with combat and non-combat abilities, and spells are a mix of combat and utility effects.

I dont say 4E had no non combat things, I say the fighter got screwed out of combat in 4E:

  • He has literally 0 utility abilities which are useful out of combat.
  • He has a bad skill list and the lowest numbers of skills.
  • Also strength only has 1 skill and constitution as well (and that one is bad)
  • He has 0 non combat feature
  • Even in the essentials, where all other classes got some non combat utility, the fighter did got none

If you compare to this the Wizard:

  • More skills
  • Better primary attribute with int (and most often better secondary)
  • Get ritual caster feat for free
  • Get cantrips, non combat spells, as class feature on top
  • Has utility powers which can be used out of combat
    • Even some which both can be used in and out of combat

And the things you mention, skill powers, martial rituals etc. are not bad but also were added over time, and as you say it does not come for free.
 

What does everyone else think? Have fighters been shortchanged by being pigeon-holed as "the meat-shield class?"
I started with AD&D 2nd edition, and at the time it never occurred to me my Fighter couldn't be good at anything but fighting. There were non-weapon proficiencies, and there were few restrictions on which one you could take. I once created a Fighter whose goal was to catalog all the creatures he came across in his adventure to create a bestiary. It was easy enough to give him Artistic Ability and move on from there.

With 3rd edition it felt a little different. Unlike AD&D 2nd edition, 3rd edition had interpersonal skills like Diplomacy and Intimidation. I didn't have enough points to really feel as though I had options. And 3rd edition was when I really started using the point buy system for character creation. If I'm rolling dice, I might get a Fighter with a 14+ Charisma, but if I'm using point buy it's probably going to be one of my lower stats, so it seems even more wasteful to put points in a skill my character isn't going to be very good at.

I think part of it is simply the nature of niche protection in D&D. For D&D in particular, there's also the problem that some attributes are more useful than others in a wider variety of situations.
 

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