D&D General When We Were Wizards: Review of the Completed Podcast!

[MGibster]

Really, Lorraine was one of a handful of investors that had both a reason and the means to actually purchase those shares. Had she not done so, the likeliest outcome would have been bankruptcy by 1986 and liquidation of all the remaining assets of TSR. I simply can't consider that skullduggery.

None of that really changes that there was a fair amount of skullduggery (I love that word) on the part of Williams in her takeover of TSR. I don't say that to suggest her actions existed in a vacuum or to vilify her, just that her actions give me the "pretty sneak, sis," vibe. Telling the financial officer to keep something from the CEO isn't something you'd normally do.

 

[Bravesteel25]

Why are you calling Lorraine Williams as Kathleen Kennedy? Is it because Kennedy has been also attacked by rabid Star Wars "fans"?

Sorry! Wong name in my head. Lorraine Williams is who I mean!

Kathleen Kennedy certainly has been vilified to an unfortunate degree and I think that's where my brain made the connection erroneously.

 

[Warren]

Just finished all the episodes and the last episode had an interesting bit of information. I had absolutely no idea that Kathleen Kennedy Lorraine Williams and TSR offered to settle with Gary for $3,000/share AND ownership of the trademarks for D&D and AD&D! Wow! I have to say that Gary really shot himself in the foot on that one. He could have maintained control of the game that he loved, but it seems like he let his ego get in the way.

My thoughts earlier were that if Gary accepted this deal it would have been the death of both TSR and "D&D" as a thing. Surely Gary would have flubbed the business aspect and we wouldn't have anything like D&D as we know it today.

 

[PHATsakk43]

My thoughts earlier were that if Gary accepted this deal it would have been the death of both TSR and "D&D" as a thing. Surely Gary would have flubbed the business aspect and we wouldn't have anything like D&D as we know it today.

I feel that I have to agree with you on that. Mr. Gygax was showing a significant lack of real output post DMG, and even the
DMG was fairly late to press and not as much solely Mr. Gygax's work as is commonly accepted. Both OA and UA which were the last two major works with Gygax's name on them were not his in the case of OA, which is really Zeb Cook's work, or UA which is really just a codification of Dragon magazine information into a core volume.

 

[Mannahnin]

My thoughts earlier were that if Gary accepted this deal it would have been the death of both TSR and "D&D" as a thing. Surely Gary would have flubbed the business aspect and we wouldn't have anything like D&D as we know it today.

I feel that I have to agree with you on that. Mr. Gygax was showing a significant lack of real output post DMG, and even the
DMG was fairly late to press and not as much solely Mr. Gygax's work as is commonly accepted. Both OA and UA which were the last two major works with Gygax's name on them were not his in the case of OA, which is really Zeb Cook's work, or UA which is really just a codification of Dragon magazine information into a core volume.

Strong possibility. The comments he made in editorials back in the 80s about his thoughts for a prospective 2nd ed AD&D were not very inspiring.

 

[Clint_L]

None of that really changes that there was a fair amount of skullduggery (I love that word) on the part of Williams in her takeover of TSR. I don't say that to suggest her actions existed in a vacuum or to vilify her, just that her actions give me the "pretty sneak, sis," vibe. Telling the financial officer to keep something from the CEO isn't something you'd normally do.

I think the podcast makes it pretty clear that Gygax was intentionally blindsided at the end. Yes, he was very much responsible for the circumstances, but I think it's fair to describe the execution of the plan as "skullduggery" (also agree that it's a great word!). I still don't think it was unethical, though. Williams kinda did what she had to at that point.

 

[PHATsakk43]

The comments he made in editorials back in the 80s about his thoughts for a prospective 2nd ed AD&D were not very inspiring.

So, basically a revision to the format without any actual revision to the game. I feel that we all owe Zeb Cook a world of gratitude for the realization of 2E, which for its flaws was an actual revision and not just a reorganization.

 

[Mannahnin]

So, basically a revision to the format without any actual revision to the game.

Plus baking in half-baked and unbalanced ideas from UA, it sounds like, and adding in some really dubious new classes. An editorial cleanup is obviously good, but just stacking more content and stuff in there without much cutting seems like a recipe for the new one being similarly baroque and even longer than the first version.

I feel that we all owe Zeb Cook a world of gratitude for the realization of 2E, which for its flaws was an actual revision and not just a reorganization.

No doubt. Though I'd have liked to see more done, and some clearer direction in the DM advice (I feel like the DMG is too wishy-washy and didn't give me clear enough guidance as a neophyte DM), he did a lot of cleanup and clarifying.

 

[PHATsakk43]

No doubt. Though I'd have liked to see more done, and some clearer direction in the DM advice (I feel like the DMG is too wishy-washy and didn't give me clear enough guidance as a neophyte DM), he did a lot of cleanup and clarifying.

We’re veering off the topic, but I feel that there is at least value in addressing the product which provided the revenue for TSR—under all its various leaders—is somewhat pertinent.

As to your specific point, two things should be considered. One, the 2E PHB & DMG are functionally aligned. The chapters line up and the division of information is actually logical. A massive improvement compared with 1E, regardless of the differences between game mechanics in the two editions. It feels far more professional a work as a result. Second, given that what is in the 2E DMG is actually not really reducible to any extent, the information you’re suggesting is missing likely couldn’t have been added. On this same point, we actually have the work by the late Jennell Jacques which was apparently originally to be included in the 2E DMG, but was ultimately removed and included in DMGR1 Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide. The basis for the second point is the history from DMsGuild.

I definitely wish that the re-issue of the 2E core books in the mid-90s had done more than change the art and a modicum of errata. Inclusion of the DMGR1 material would have made it better.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

I just finished the podcast. It was a blast to listen to. I started to read some of Peterson's books this year, but I'm progressing slowly (life stuff) and the podcast was a perfect fit for when I was the dishes.

I'm too young to have experienced the thick of what the podcast explore (born 1990), yet I read and heard so much about all this rattle. Gygax VS Arneson, Williams was a witch, Gygax was a victim, Gygax was a genius, Gygax was a terrible business man, etc.

I'm not gonna take for granted that the podcast is the complete source of truth, but I'll take for granted that most of what it depicted happened.

I'm shocked! It's a crazy story. The unpredictable convergence of different interests and ideas that sprouts a new form of storytelling, the business that starts in the middle of nowhere and skyrockets in a matter of years to millions in revenue, the absolute graveyard of relationships and friendships left behind this path to wealth and success. The battle of egos. The lawsuits...

It was really a huge melting pot of flawed individuals (as we all are) with a lot of time and money.

I was blown away by the baffling business decisions taken, by some of the testimonies that described what certain people said or acted. I was lucky to have never worked in a toxic work environment, or to have witness corporate politics.

In the end, I think Gygax's story is kind of a tragedy with a touch of bittersweetness at the end. He rose to fame and wealth because of who he is, but that also brought him down really hard really fast. I was touched by the mention of his reconnection with fans towards the latter years of his life. It echoed the communal and playful spirit of the first few episodes of the show.

The podcast talked way less about Arneson. But to me it seemed like he was a resourceful and inventive designer that just didn't have the skillset to discipline an organize himself to put his ideas into form (which seems to be what Gygax did with bryo in the early 1970s, damn they were productive). I'd like to know more about him in the future.

As for Williams... she seemed like the most balanced character. She was a businesswoman through and through. I do think the way she took over the company was sneaky and lacked a certain honesty. But it is business, and from what the podcast described, it seems to be that Gygax would have run the company in the ground if things had continued. I work in a startup as number two, and I would not have trusted and continued if my boss had acted the way Gygax had. Sometimes dire situations requires dire measures. Some would say that if Williams had not done things the way she had, Gygax could have found a way to buy the Blumes shares and keep the company. Which is exactly why she did what she did. Her goal was not to just fix the Blumes situation, it was not to get more shares, the goal was to pry control of the company out of Gygax' hands. And that's exactly what she did.

I'll go back to reading Peterson's book with this new knowledge in mind, it'll help me frame some things.