When You Keep Killing Characters?

[Schmoe]

I had a player like this in one of my campaigns. He was playing a paladin, supposedly a sound battlefield tactician, but he himself was pretty clueless. After he mentioned that he was getting frustrated, I suggested that maybe once per encounter I would offer some tactical advice, or he could ask for some advice, which I would give purely to his benefit. I was always careful in my advice to point out the benefits and disadvantages of certain actions, such as "moving here will open you up to sneak attacks from all 4 rogues, and may very well kill you. If you move here instead you can still attack and protect the party, but you are much less vulnerable." But I still left the decision to him. It worked well, and he was much happier from that point. In fact, he began to learn from the advice and toward the end of the campaign was making sound tactical decisions on his own.

In your case, you may suggest something similar, given that the characters are probably decent in tactical combat, even if the players are not.

 

[Vurt]

Even with veterans of the game, it can be difficult at times to remember what all their characters can do, or even should do, especially after an extended break in gaming sessions of some sort, or after a new character has been rolled up. In these situations, what I generally do is pull out one of the Monster Manuals and flip through it while the players draw up on the battlemap the Arena of No Consequences.

The Arena takes up most of the battlemat, and features a variety of terrains (pools, sandpits, somebody's garden) as well as columns and such holding up the ceiling way overhead. By the time this is done to my liking, I will have made notes for a variety of encounters featuring critters showing off various styles of combat, ranging from ELs a few below to a few above the average party level. And then after a brief and endearingly cheesy monologue, we run through them. After each combat, the characters "reset" back to their original state.

The point is to give plenty of opportunities for the players to try stuff out, come up with tactics and combinations of spells and feats, figure out what works and what doesn't, and to not have them worry too much about character death or a cascade of TPKs. There's no plot for the players to be concerned with, and no loot for the DM to have to think about.

I've found the Arena to be a good way to kickstart my players out of a rut. It's also a useful and entertaining tool for when half the players don't show up for a session.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[gizmo33]

What were the levels of the BBEG and the rogues?

 

[billd91]

I had a player like this in one of my campaigns. He was playing a paladin, supposedly a sound battlefield tactician, but he himself was pretty clueless. After he mentioned that he was getting frustrated, I suggested that maybe once per encounter I would offer some tactical advice, or he could ask for some advice, which I would give purely to his benefit. I was always careful in my advice to point out the benefits and disadvantages of certain actions, such as "moving here will open you up to sneak attacks from all 4 rogues, and may very well kill you. If you move here instead you can still attack and protect the party, but you are much less vulnerable." But I still left the decision to him. It worked well, and he was much happier from that point. In fact, he began to learn from the advice and toward the end of the campaign was making sound tactical decisions on his own.

In your case, you may suggest something similar, given that the characters are probably decent in tactical combat, even if the players are not.

I do this pretty freely in my games too. If someone is hesitant about a move, I'll give them pros and cons of the choices they've voiced thus-far, at least as far as the rules of the game go as well as any previously revealed abilities of their opponents.

 

[carborundum]

I recently started the Savage Tide and one player wanted to enter the Arena to prove his combat skills and join a mercenary organization. I asked everyone to draw up first level characters and set up an arena free-for-all. I'm rusty at DM-ing and they haven't used all the rules for a while. With all the nets, tripping, disarming, sundering and grappling going on it was a great way to refresh all the tactical rules without everyone losing their 'real' characters. Everyone could only do non-lethal damage so I just said the weapons were practice versions with the same weight, balance etc. and forgot about the whole -4 thing.
Great fun for all concerned and great practice for me. Like Vurt said - if you throw in terrain and flanking rules in the Arena it will be a fun session too. The PCs could be spectators as you play out the arena combat.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Player 1: First combat with his new character (after his previous character died in last week's session). Walks into the middle of combat, is flanked by 4 rogues each dealing sneak attack damage. If he had stepped back into a more favorable position where he wasn't getting sneak attacked every round, he would have lived.

Did the player understand that he was getting flanked, allowing extra sneak attack damage? Did you describe it to him? "OK, the Rogue hits, made easier since you are flanked. His knife plunges into the small of your back dealing 5 points of damage plus an extra 4 points from his sneak attack ability."

Player 2: Takes his rogue and enters the middle of combat, attacked by 3 flanking rogues and the BBEG (who can kill him in 2 hits).

Player 3: Takes his sorcerer into melee combat with what had just killed Player 2 and meets the same fate.

What are the rest of the players, the ones who aren't dying, doing? Are they offering advice? Are their characters making decent decisions? How the heck does one person get flanked by four rogues, another by three rogues, plus the BBEG when there are three other PCs out there? Seven rogues and one BBEG on three PCs. If the other three PCs were also dealing with similar situations and/or numbers, but using better tactics, it makes me wonder if you are running a meat-grinder of an adventure that is way too much for people who aren't big into tactics.

 

[Retreater]

The other players (the more veteran gamers) were trying to offer advice during the combat. I tried to warn the newer players like, "you're opening yourself up to 4 sneak attacks if they hit." I did not design the encounter, it came in an official WotC module. Lately with my home repairs and getting ready to move I don't really have the time to write original stuff.

The encounter was an EL 9. The group did know exactly what to expect when they were going in and had easy access to retreat the whole time. The enemies were a 6th level sorcerer, a 4th level cleric/half dragon, and 5 1st level rogues. The party was at full strength. There were 6 characters. Average party level was 5 (modified by +2 for using the recharge magic variant from Unearthed Arcana).

Sure it was a difficult, climactic encounter. But there should have been no problem had everyone played his role. Like, why in the heck should a sorcerer step up into melee combat with the BBEG to try to hit him with a Scorching Ray? He's lost several characters like this.

It's just incredibly frustrating.

Retreater

 

[Doug McCrae]

Like, why in the heck should a sorcerer step up into melee combat with the BBEG to try to hit him with a Scorching Ray?

Perhaps he's misunderstood 'ranged touch attack' and thinks he has to be adjacent to the target. 'Ranged touch attack' is a peculiar and perhaps misleading phrase, after all how can something be both ranged and a touch?

 

[Retreater]

Perhaps he's misunderstood 'ranged touch attack' and thinks he has to be adjacent to the target. 'Ranged touch attack' is a peculiar and perhaps misleading phrase, after all how can something be both ranged and a touch?

One would hope so, but I'm afraid that's not the case. In another encounter the same session he used Scorching Ray from a range. I think he was trying to avoid firing into combat or through cover or something ... I'm not really sure what he was thinking.

Retreater

 

[Wik]

maybe its just me, but a half dragon with class levels with rouges as back up may be a bit much for a fith level anything.

You might not want to go for the killing blows at all times, I mean, not every stab goes to the heart or the lung. People do get bumps and bruies and bloody noses from combat without dying all the time.


Just a thought.

Game On.

Yeah, I fully agree here. Four rogues? That seems unnecessarily tough. But then, we don't know the particulars.