When You Keep Killing Characters?

[Nail]

One would hope so, but I'm afraid that's not the case. In another encounter the same session he used Scorching Ray from a range. I think he was trying to avoid firing into combat or through cover or something ... I'm not really sure what he was thinking.

Retreater

You'd better ask next time.

We don't know all of the details of your group, so it's difficult to pick the best option. But if I were you, I'd start asking the player what his tactics are as he's doing them. He might even say "Well, I need to move here so I can blast the bad guy,' to which you respond "Oh. I see. Well, actually the BBEG is clearly visibile from where you are, so your new position won't change anything........you sure you want to move?"

BTW: How many players in your group?

 

[Nail]

Yeah, I fully agree here. Four rogues? That seems unnecessarily tough. But then, we don't know the particulars.

If they are Rog 1's, then they should have fallen within the first round. Cleaved by the Ftr, even.

Without knowing any more than what is listed in this thread, it sounds like the encounter was fine.

 

[jdrakeh]

I think you've got some players who don't understand the game very well...

Alternately, he may have players who just want to thwart evil and not play squad-level wargames on the tabletop. In which case, D&D may not be the best game for them. They might need something less dependent on tactical prowess and something more focused on cool.

 

[hong]

What I do sometimes, when people make a move that I consider egregiously stupid, is ask "are you sure?" This gives them a chance to rethink their actions.

Of course, then you get players who believe this to be DM encroachment on player freedom of action, leading to an obstinate "yes, I'm sure" answer just because they can. Or they change their mind, and then resent you for it.

 

[Quartz]

The encounter was an EL 9.

Your party is 5th level. This encounter is +4 levels. You should expect multiple PC deaths from such an encounter. If the party has used half or more of its resources, you should expect a TPK.

Sorry, but it seems to me that the fault is your expectations as much as your players' abilities.

 

[borc killer]

Your party is 5th level. This encounter is +4 levels. You should expect multiple PC deaths from such an encounter. If the party has used half or more of its resources, you should expect a TPK.

Sorry, but it seems to me that the fault is your expectations as much as your players' abilities.

EL9 for a 4 person party. They had 6. It should have been an easy fight if the party was built well... but with a weak party it would be hard. This was not a blue dragon in a moat house after all.

To the OP: You need to start asking "can you tell me why you want to do that?" And let them explain what they think will happen and then you can correct them.

 

[shilsen]

EL9 for a 4 person party. They had 6. It should have been an easy fight if the party was built well... but with a weak party it would be hard. This was not a blue dragon in a moat house after all.

A six person party just means that they're as tough as a four person party of one level higher. In this case, that means the EL was one less than the EL for putting the party up against itself (six CR5 enemies would be EL 10), which means that killing three PCs was quite an unexceptional result.

My rule of thumb for an encounter that can take the PCs down to the wire is party EL - 2. Party EL - 1 would potentially be a TPK and Party EL would definitely be a TPK. And I'm DMing for a bunch of very powerful PCs with players who are pretty good tacticians. That's evidently not the case for the OP, so some changing of expectations is required.

To the OP: You need to start asking "can you tell me why you want to do that?" And let them explain what they think will happen and then you can correct them.

Good idea.

 

[mmu1]

I don't know - short of truly exceptional stats and gear for the Sorcerer and the Half-Dragon, or the party getting ambushed or otherwise forced to fight at a huge disadvantage, this actually sounds like a somewhat tough but straightforward fight for six 5th level characters.

The rogues are just speedbumps, and should be dead by the end of round one. (if they really were 1st level) The sorcerer might be able to cause serious damage, but - unless it's a really unusual build - has no HP and like all arcane casters, isn't going to do well at all when swarmed by enemies. The half-dragon Cleric 4 is another character with - at least in theory - something of a glass jaw because of low HD, not much in the way of spellcasting ability, a crap touch AC and only one attack per round.

It's pretty obvious that some of the players really screwed up, here, but (again, short of adventure writers being stupid and making the enemies 50+ point characters, or something - which can easily bump the EL a considerable amount) this is actually one of the (somewhat) rare instances of the EL overestimating the difficulty of the encounter.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Effectively, an EL 9 encounter for a table of six PCs of average level=5th is about an EL+3 encounter. This should easily cause problems for a talented party of PCs who have not spent resources yet in the day. If their resources are getting tapped out then the challenge just got that much tougher and you could expect a death to occur. If the players are not tactical geniuses and have spent much of their resources, then deaths all around sounds expected.

Also, unfortunately, EL+3 encounters in the mid-levels are particularly touch and go no matter how talented players may be. Sometimes a party just hits that sweet-spot of an encounter where they just would never have the appropriate abilities to overcome some challenge because they over-specialized in some unexpected (but cool!) direction.

 

[freyar]

Ok, the EL & XP calculator (formerly available at the EN World toolbox -- broken link now, though) lists the effective party level as 6.2 and the EL as 8.6. It's not too unexpected to get party deaths, but (assuming they went in with most of their resources left) they should probably have done a little better...