When you want to shoot the passengers

[Pielorinho]

The quoted material is an example of the rules I'm gonna propose; you can skip it if you want to jump into the question.

Recently, as we were tootling through the Egyptian desert in our jeep, we were hailed by a bunch of guys out for a day of ATV-riding fun. And by "hail" I mean "hail of bullets."

Naturally their idea of fun didn't coincide with ours, and a crazy wild chase ensued.

At one point, after the Pointman crashed our Jeep, he said, "to heck with it!" (maybe his language was a bit stronger), and leapt out the window onto the back of one of the ATVs as it circled around. I took over driving the jeep, as the crash wasn't too severe, and the chase continued.

The Pointman was whaling away on Mook #1's head with a socket wrench (yay improvised weapon feat!) as Mook #1 drove ATV #1. And that's when Mook #2 realized something awful.

The only way he could shoot at the Pointman was to shoot at ATV #1 and hope for a window critical.

The GM stopped, thought about it, and decided, "That's stupid!" Mook #2 was able to shoot at the Pointman all he wanted.

The GM definitely made the right decision here, but this is an issue that we've come across in a couple of chases: often it really seems like you ought to be able to shoot at or otherwise attack passengers of a vehicle, but by the rules this seems to be impossible.

If I'm wrong--if you CAN shoot at passengers without just shooting the vehicle and hoping for a critical--please let me know! But, assuming you currently can't, here are some houserules I was thinking of proposing to allow it:
1) When shooting at a driver/passenger, that character's defense is the higher of the character's normal defense and the vehicle's defense. In other words, Frank (Def 15) is riding in the back of a Jeep (Def 5, after calculating the driver's Dex). Someone shooting Frank is looking to hit Def15. Later Frank hops on a motorcycle (Def 20); shooters are now looking to hit Def20.
2) Characters in or on vehicles usually have cover, ranging from 25% for a motorcycle (windshield, saddle, etc.) to 75% for most cars and trucks. In rare situations (somebody hanging on to the back of a rogue garbage truck, for example), there's no cover.
3) As normal, if you miss a character only due to their cover bonus, you hit the cover. In this case, I would subtract the vehicle's hardness from damage dealt, and then apply remaining damage to the character. I wouldn't apply any damage to the vehicle, because the cover the character gets usually isn't from vital parts of the vehicle; you won't disable a car by shooting up its door real bad.
4) Tinted windows provide concealment, natch.

I'm thinking these rules mean that in most situations it's much harder to shoot passengers than to shoot the vehicle itself, but at least it's possible to make the attempt.

What do folks think?
Daniel

 

[Piratecat]

I like it.

How would you handle someone not in a vehicle shooting in to the car? If you look at movies, those shots always break windshields and hit the car, but never the person (ie you'd need a critical.) Is that just movie fluff getting in the way of reality?

Also, how about when someone deliberately tries to shoot out tires? That's another common tactic that's hard to accomplish.

 

[Pielorinho]

Thanks! I posted the same suggestion over on the Alderac boards, and somebody just told me that I'd described, more or less, the rules for shooting passengers given in the Soldier/Wheelman splatbook. So apparently I'm on the right track!

Daniel

 

[Piratecat]

(See expanded comments above.)

I really need to get up to date on my Spycraft supplements.

 

[Pielorinho]

How would you handle someone not in a vehicle shooting in to the car? If you look at movies, those shots always break windshields and hit the car, but never the person (ie you'd need a critical.) Is that just movie fluff getting in the way of reality?

Well, sometimes they hit the character. Keep in mind that this is a very difficult shot: you're hitting someone with three-quarters cover, AND they're a secret agent with lots of vitality points. However, it might be reasonable to apply a speed-based penalty: similar to the one for shooting from a moving vehicle, you get a -2 penalty for each 25 mph the vehicle is travelling.

Thus, shooting at a passenger in a car going 50 MPH, you face a -10 penalty (-6 for 3/4 cover, -4 for speed), and you have to hit the person's defense instead of the vehicle's, which sounds about right to me.

Also, how about when someone deliberately tries to shoot out tires? That's another common tactic that's hard to accomplish.

With that, I'm pretty okay leaving it under the normal rules (although I might allow a character to spend an additional action die to choose what effect their critical had). Or, if I wanted to vary wildly from the rules as published, I could see allowing a character to spend an action die to aim at a tire; the tires would have the same defense as the rest of the vehicle except that they're size tiny (or maybe small) and have 1/2 cover from the wheel well. Something like that. But I think the critical rules for most things besides attacking passengers work pretty well.

Daniel

 

[Piratecat]

I tend to agree. People do blink, though, when I say "Well, you may hit the tires, or you may hit the engine." A little GM interpretation is needed.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Also, how about when someone deliberately tries to shoot out tires? That's another common tactic that's hard to accomplish.

I once stood by and watched a friend shoot a 9mm submachine gun at a tire from about 5 feet away.

The burst of bullets bounced off.

It was probably the single most harrowing moment of my life; but at any rate it's left me with the unshakable impression that shooting out a tire, while a common tactic, isn't necessarily all that easy to do. There's an awful lot of physics at work that I am perfectly willing to hand over to the whims of the dice.


Wulf

 

[Pielorinho]

Wow--interesting! I always assumed they'd pop like balloons.

At the same time, there are a couple of complications:
1) I like playing Spycraft to emulate superspy movies, not real life.
2) From a design perspective, I kinda feel like players ought to be able to try any specific action they want, even if their chances of success are extremely low.
3) At the same time, players don't get to try for location-specific criticals when fighting a person--no aiming for the opponent's hands, for example--so why should they get to do differently vs. a vehicle?

I kinda like the idea of allowing an extra action die on a critical to determine where you hit. Basically, when you say, "I'm gonna try to shoot the tires out!" the GM says, "Great. If you do marginally well, you'll at least hit the car somewhere. If you do super-duper well and score a threat, you can spend an action die to confirm the threat and another action die to guarantee your superduper shot hits the tire."

Daniel

 

[slingbld]

I once stood by and watched a friend shoot a 9mm submachine gun at a tire from about 5 feet away.

The burst of bullets bounced off.

It was probably the single most harrowing moment of my life; but at any rate it's left me with the unshakable impression that shooting out a tire, while a common tactic, isn't necessarily all that easy to do. There's an awful lot of physics at work that I am perfectly willing to hand over to the whims of the dice.


Wulf

A lot depends on the calibre of the weapon, and the angle of the shot. I real instances of police aiming to shoot out a tire, they are rarely using a 9mm weapon, thier handguns are typically larger calibre. They also have training on doing this. Also, did your friend fire at teh sidewalls? Or the tread? That will make a BIG difference. the sidewalls are Many times more vulnerable to puncture

 

[IllusionaryLunch]

The thread mentioned earlier is here.

But I've got a feeling that all you guys are really wanting is the Soldier/Wheelman Class Guide. It has all the information that you're wanting and a whole lot more.

Now to tease you by giving you a taste of what lies beneath the pages of this hallowed tome.

Pretty much the entire second half of the book is new Vehicle Rules and Chase Options (actually considering that it stretches from page 52 to page 103, it is the entire second half of the book) and they add a whole lot more to the game.

It starts with some basic stuff.

Connected Vehicles - semi-trailers, tow trucks, etc. The effect that dragging something will have.

Firing At A Vehicle's Vitals - This is the part that you guys were wanting. You suffer a penalty to hit in order to gain an increased threat range against the vehicle (thereby getting a better chance to to do some serious damage against that part of the vehicle). With the new OTP (open top) quality, this allows you to hit characters in the vehicle.

Loaded Vehicles - What happens when you're carrying too much (why do I get the image of the Beverly Hillbillies in my head here?).

Four Wheeling - New terrain types and rules for dealing with them.

Jumping Vehicles - Because what spy movie isn't complete without a vehicle jumping over another vehicle?

Road Rashing - Clinging on the outside of a vehicle (ie batt;les on a train or zeppelin). Very Spy-y

Revised Collisions Rules - What happens when you hit a person with a vehicle.

New Air Chase Rules - Introducing Smash points for the higher vehicle. And new maneuvers for the air.

Races and Gambling - Completely randomised or...

Roleplaying Races - New maneuvers, creating a course.

Vehicular Combat - New Maneuvers, play Chicken!

Getting Around - Skydiving, SCUBA Diving, Tunnel Rats.

Managing Hybrid Chases - Zeppelin Vs Pogo Stick, here we come!!

Advanced Vehicle Malfunctions & New Vehicle Failures.

Heaps of new vehicle types, Improving Vehicles, Low Cost Vehicles, Repairing Vehicles, stacks of new Vehicle Qualities & Modifications, Drones, and...

VEHICULAR ORDINANCE (Stuff that really goes BOOM!! - Fuel Air Bombs, Torpedos, HEAVY Machine Guns!)

This is the book that you guys need. the only thing that it is missing is my favourite vehicle of all - The Clown Car (and for that you need to get The Shop Threat Book!).