D&D 5E "Whenever you roll initiative" capstones: idea for replacing them

[FormerlyHemlock]

Here's an idea I wouldn't mind discussing with someone:

Features like the Battlemaster's Relentless, the Monk's Perfect Self, and the bard capstone give you something "whenever you roll initiative."

There are obvious problems with this kind of rule, from the fact that it incents PCs to start fake fights with each other to the way it becomes super-powerful if you use a rule variant like Speed Factor Initiative (where initiative is rolled every round) to the way it privileges combat as a special mode of play. These capstones are also typically viewed as very weak mechanically.

You could replace these capstones with something that works based on a timer instead of an initiative roll instead. E.g.

1.) Relentless [Battlemaster 15th IIRC]: five minutes after you expend your last superiority die, you regain one die.

2.) Perfect Self [Monk 20]: whenever you've had less than four ki for five minutes, you regain enough ki to have four ki remaining.

3.) Superior Inspiration [Bard 20]: whenever you've had no uses of Bardic Inspiration left for five minutes, you regain one use of Bardic Inspiration.

This would make these features usable out of combat and slightly better (like an ultra-quick mini-short rest ability) while simultaneously getting rid of the annoying problems with fake fights and initiative variants.

Thoughts? Probably 80% of you out there are perfectly fine with these capstones as written; but is there anyone else who's looked into rewriting or replacing them? What did you do?

 

[Oofta]

How do you start a "fake fight"? The DM decides when to roll for initiative, not the players. If there is no intent to do real damage, there is no fight.

But I also don't see the point. In all cases you regain a beneficial feature (superiority die, ki, bardic inspiration) only if you have none left. I guess the inspiration might be useful you allow them to grant it outside of combat.

So count me as part of the 80% that don't see the issue. Am I missing something?

 

[jaelis]

I also don't see a problem with the abilities as written, but if you don't like them your proposal seems ok.

 

[JeffB]

How do you start a "fake fight"? The DM decides when to roll for initiative, not the players.

This.

 

[Ath-kethin]

How do you start a "fake fight"? The DM decides when to roll for initiative, not the players.

This.

The statement gets my vote as well. Motion carried.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

There are obvious problems with this kind of rule, from the fact that it incents PCs to start fake fights with each other to the way it becomes super-powerful if you use a rule variant like Speed Factor Initiative (where initiative is rolled every round) to the way it privileges combat as a special mode of play.

I agree with the consensus that "fake fights" are a nonissue. I can, however, still see the broader point you're trying to make: A 20th-level party walks up to a broad chasm. The monk is out of ki, so she can't jump it. One very optimistic kobold leaps out of the shadows swinging a rusty gardening implement. Roll initiative. Kobold evaporates nigh-instantaneously to epic-level firepower. Fight over. But now the monk can jump the chasm. The presence or absence of the kobold determined the monk's ability to overcome the non-kobold-related obstacle. Weird, right?

But no, not really that weird to me. Combat is special. Adrenaline is a thing. And ki, at least, is explicitly magical, so who knows how it's supposed to work? I don't see anything wrong with your revision, but I don't see anything wrong with the core rules either, at least not on this front. Really, the question is irrelevant to me, because if I were rewriting these capstone abilities, I'd replace them completely with something less boring. Simplest idea: Perfect Self should just give the monk magic resistance, like it did in 3E.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

How do you start a "fake fight"? The DM decides when to roll for initiative, not the players. If there is no intent to do real damage, there is no fight.

But I also don't see the point. In all cases you regain a beneficial feature (superiority die, ki, bardic inspiration) only if you have none left. I guess the inspiration might be useful you allow them to grant it outside of combat.

So count me as part of the 80% that don't see the issue. Am I missing something?

Bardic Inspiration is useful for skill checks, and ki is useful for various outside-combat tasks including Pass Without Trace/Darkness/Silence, Fly spells for elemental monks, saving throws against traps, turning invisible via Empty Body to avoid combat, and probably other things I'm overlooking right now.

 

[Oofta]

Bardic Inspiration is useful for skill checks, and ki is useful for various outside-combat tasks including Pass Without Trace/Darkness/Silence, Fly spells for elemental monks, saving throws against traps, turning invisible via Empty Body to avoid combat, and probably other things I'm overlooking right now.

I'll grant that some skills might be marginally useful outside of combat. I don't think they are grossly overpowered though.

It still wouldn't work in my game because it's the equivalent of the "bag of rats" exploit. If it's not a real combat, there is no initiative rolled, it doesn't work.

I don't have a problem with your rule, but for my game it would have the opposite effect - instead of getting refreshed at the start of (real) combats, they'd now be refreshed constantly throughout the day.

 

[DEFCON 1]

In my personal opinion, there is practically nothing that I would throw at a 20th level party "out of combat" which would or should hinge on the need of a ki point, bardic inspiration, or superiority die. The abilities you gain from those bennies are so mundane that I feel 20th level characters should be beyond those trivial things. Otherwise, I'm treating being 20th level like being 6th level, and what's the point of playing at that level then?

 

[hastur_nz]

It was a long time ago that we played 5e up to Epic level (i.e. level 20, with one or two Epic Boons on top). From memory, the capstone abilities, of all classes, were OK as written. One could argue that they were not 'balanced', in that some classes felt better than others, but I don't recall it being a problem. For me (as DM), I felt like they were tacked-on in homage to the 4e Epic powers, and never play-tested, but hey the whole of 5e at high levels was, unfortunately, exactly that; not properly play-tested (we were in the beta group, but didn't get to high level before the rules were changed, added to with loads of stuff we'd never seen, and published). Stuff like the high level monsters and encounter building guidelines were well and truly thrown out the door in cases where I wanted to challenge the PC's well before they got to 20th level. For PC's, no single level gives you a loads of new stuff, even 20th level is just a small increment in the grand scheme of things; the problem is simply the same as 4e suffered from: the PC's are on a different trajectory than the monsters, so the higher level they get, the more they out-pace their foes in combats.