Where are the Mental Stat Bonuses?

[Scion]

the designers

I dont know if this is actually true, since there are at least some who have said the opposite. So 'in general' is hard to say there as well.

Even given what a mental stat does for a caster of the appropriate type I'd still say that dex is one of the strongest stats by far.

It gives initiative bonuses, reflex save bonuses, a bonus to a list of very good skills, ranged attack increase, potential for melee attack increase, and armor class. (the first can make or break a whole encounter at some levels and the last can count for a 'ton' of hp and cancled effects over a given day)


But I guess I'll just say that I am on the side of +2 to any single stat is ok for LA +0 races. It doesnt matter which of them, if someone feels that any one of them is ok for LA +0 then they all are. All or nothing

 

[Krelios]

some

Aside from being a smart aleck and quoting just a tiny portion of your post as you did mine. The key word really is "some." There are so few races on the books with a +2 casting stat and LA 0 that the vast majority of races seem to purposefully avoid it. All but one developer that has commented on the issue has said that the decision was on purpose.

All or nothing

Unfortunately, not all stats are equal.

 

[blargney the second]

If you want to go Mystic Theurge, have a look at the Illumians in Races of Destiny. Take the two rune-thingies that let you key your primary casting stat to Dex. Crank Dex.

-blarg

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Well, since they seem to think it's alright for their damned munchkin-bait subraces, I think it's alright for the core races.

Hence, in my games, Elves are -2 STR/+2 DEX/-2 CON/+2 CHA, Gnomes are -2 STR/+2 CON/+2 INT/-2 WIS, and Halflfings are -2 STR/+2 DEX/-2 WIS/+2 CHA.

I do try to avoid giving a race a double bonus of giving them a bonus to the casting stat of their Favored Class (or one of the classes in their Favored Gestalt), with the exception of Elves-- since I've got them mapped to Ranger/Bard, I don't worry about the Charisma bonus.

Also, there are plenty of low LA/ECL races with mental bonuses in the written rules-- just very few zero LA/ECL races with mental bonuses. Aasimar, Tiefling, Githzerai, Githyanki, a handful of templates, and so on. Most of the races in the Expanded Psionics Handbook have some mental bonus.

 

[Scion]

Aside from being a smart aleck and quoting just a tiny portion of your post as you did mine. The key word really is "some." There are so few races on the books with a +2 casting stat and LA 0 that the vast majority of races seem to purposefully avoid it. All but one developer that has commented on the issue has said that the decision was on purpose.

I quoted the relevant part, since it was just above anyone could read the rest.

Also, you didnt use the word 'some', you said 'in general' which implies 'most' or 'the majority' or even 'all'.

There are few, very few in fact, but at least some of the designers have said it was a mistake and that if they could do it over again they would change it. Also, they said that the reason that more arent made is 'because' in the core it wasnt done. So, the mistake is compounded.

I am hopeful that someday the mistake will be corrected

Unfortunately, not all stats are equal.

Not all stats are equal to everyone, but overall for everyone stats that can be used to the best degree in circumstances are all about equal.

Which means that overall they are roughly equal.

But that is not to say that ability X wont be better than ability Y for a given character build Z.

It just means that when used to their best effect each stat has about the same impact.

 

[Particle_Man]

Isn't there an anthropomorphic bat in Savage Species that is LA=0 and +6 Wis? That would make a good divine caster.

 

[Blood Jester]

In general, the designers (i.e., WotC) and a fair portion of the community (I hesitate to say, "majority," without actual numbers) feel that bonuses to mental stats are worth more than bonuses to physical stats. Basically, a +1 modifier on strength is an extra point of attack/damage rolls, +1 constitution is a hit point, dex is AC, etc. In the case of a bonus on mental stats, that increases the DC of all spells, the level of spells the caster is capable of using, and grants bonus spells--all in addition to whatever skills they enhance. Intelligence and Charisma being the most ubiquitous of the lot.

Essentially, there is a large community that agrees with WotC in that +2 to a casting stat is worth a +1 LA. (Except for Grey Elves, which WotC has never deigned to explain.)

I don't understant this argument when it is explicitly stated that bonuses to stats such as Strength are more powerful than bonuses to stats like Charisma.

DM's are advised against considering a -2 to Int to be a balance to a +2 to Str. (Although they seem ok with -2 to Str as a balnace to +2 Int.)

 

[Endovior]

I find that odd, too. You're saying that mental bonuses are worth less, when the DMG itself says the opposite.
The Exact text:

Here's an important point: Not all ability scores are equal. For example, the half-orc has a penalty to both Intelligence and Wisdom but only a bonus to Strength. That is because neither a penalty to Intelligence nor a penalty to Charisma by itself is equivalent to a bonus in Strength.

It goes on to a table showing that a bonus to Strength or Dexterity should be balanced with a penalty to Constitution OR any two mental ability, a bonus to Constitution balanced by a penalty to Dexterity OR any mental ability, and a bonus to any mental ability balanced by a penalty to any other mental ability. Thus, WOTC has quite explicitly stated that physical stats are more important then mental stats. Indeed, it goes on to say that a race with a bonus to a mental stat but a penalty to a physical one is unbalanced... being too weak!!!

Cease all claims to the 'WOTC supporting the mental stats being more important' theory... it's clearly false.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Cease all claims to the 'WOTC supporting the mental stats being more important' theory... it's clearly false.

It doesn't break down quite like that.

The way the design philosophy seems to run is, a bonus to a physical stat is worth a penalty to two mental stats (though generally it's either Intelligence or Wisdom plus Charisma; I can't think of anything that has penalties to Intelligence and Wisdom and a normal Charisma), but mental stats are too powerful to give bonuses to at ECL 0.

Unless, of course, the creature is a Dwarf or an Elf.

It more or less makes sense if you accept their assumption that physical stats are more important to all characters and that a bonus to a potential spellcasting stat is unbalancing at ECL 0. (And you ignore the general inconsistency involved with Dwarves and Elves.)

One thing this last edition of D&D has done, though, is make Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma more important for more characters, and I simply don't think that the assumption about physical stats holds true-- especially with the variety of ways that mental stats can be used to great effect for non-magical characters in combat.

The second assumption holds a little more weight, in my opinion, so when handing out bonuses to mental ability scores, I try to be careful to make sure there's some kind of counter-balance-- such as limiting their ability in another class or encouraging them to pursue classes which make less effective use of their bonuses. Using the Gestalt rules (and Favored Gestalts) does wonders.

 

[Pasus Nauran]

Also, there are plenty of low LA/ECL races with mental bonuses in the written rules-- just very few zero LA/ECL races with mental bonuses. Aasimar, Tiefling, Githzerai, Githyanki, a handful of templates, and so on. Most of the races in the Expanded Psionics Handbook have some mental bonus.

Githyanki don't get a mental stat bonus. They get +2 Dex, +2 Con, and -2 Wis according to the XPH. Aasimar, Tiefling, and Githzerai are some of the few races I've found with mental stat bonuses and low LA (ie: +0-2).

In the XPH, only Dromites (+2 Cha, -2 Str, -2 Wis), Githzerai (+6 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int), and Thri-Kreen (+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int, -2 Cha) get positive mental bonuses (and Thri-Kreen have a ECL of 4 due to their 2 HD), which I wouldn't say qualifies as "Most of the races".

I've looked through most current books (excluding Forgotten Realms and Eberron specific ones), and almost all PC-compatible templates (with the exception of Half-Vampire from Libris Mortis) have LAs of +3 or +4, though most do give a decent set of stat bonuses including at least one mental.

To put things in perspective, the character I'm looking to create would have to have an ECL around 8 or 9, and so being a spellcaster would mean I wouldn't want to take too big of a LA.