D&D 5E Where are the Real Dragons?

[Li Shenron]

Solution is to make the dragons like you want and not change it. It's the very same as if you were given rules. Unless the players are going and looking the dragons up and metagaming, and if you allow that then let the players into your design process. otherwise I don't see the problem if all red dragons are the same casting the same spells. Either you are given rules or make them up and keep with a consistent ruling nothing should matter! Happy gaming!

The problem with making them up, is that you're on your own trying to figure out how the changes affected the encounter difficulty. Which I think should be the purpose of the books... Sure if I just give a dragon one spell per encounter, it's not going to have much of an effect, and it's already a small interesting change.

But for example, if I have CR 10 dragon and I want it to be more tactical and versatile, so I give it a few levels of Wizard. What is the resulting CR (or XP)? Maybe there's a minimum spellcasting level (2 or 3) which doesn't even affect CR/XP in practice. But more levels will have an effect for sure.

This is the kind of job that I want the MM or DMG to do for me. At least if the baseline of most MM monsters are as low-complexity as they are now.

According to Morrus in this thread, innate spellcasting for dragons is presented as an option in the MM if you don't want to use the monsters-with-class-levels rules.

So there are going to be monsters-with-class-levels rules in the DMG? If this is confirmed, then great news!

 

[MarkB]

Does a dragon need to cast telekinesis/mage hand to hold stuff, sending to contact minions not in speaking range or alter self to move around in human cities?

No, he has minions to do all that for him.

 

[Derren]

No, he has minions to do all that for him.

Which reduces the dragon to a oversized guarddog with ego issues as all the important stuff is done by minions and without them the dragon is impotent.

 

[KarinsDad]

Which reduces the dragon to a oversized guarddog with ego issues as all the important stuff is done by minions and without them the dragon is impotent.

No, it makes him Royalty.

Lesser beings wait on him hand and foot. With the innate spell system in the MM (Cha mod number of spells, CR/2 max level, once per day), he just takes Lightning Bolt and can get some fool not working from 100 feet away and he never has to even get off of his bed of gold pieces. He takes Fireball if he wants to go longer and doesn't care about collateral damage. Boom.

 

[MarkB]

Which reduces the dragon to a oversized guarddog with ego issues as all the important stuff is done by minions and without them the dragon is impotent.

No, it makes him the brains and will behind the organisation - the mastermind who doesn't need to get his own hands dirty. Think Jabba the Hutt, except that instead of a slug on a slab you've got a massive engine of death that would make any Rancor cringe in fear.

Besides, doing delicate work on fragile items, communicating with others at long range, and disguising oneself perfectly so as to pass unnoticed in front of one's enemies are all things that may be beyond the personal power of even an ordinary humanoid criminal mastermind. Are you saying that any non-spellcaster who has to rely upon the expertise of others for particular tasks is too impotent to be a credible arch-villain?

 

[Derren]

Are you saying that any non-spellcaster who has to rely upon the expertise of others for particular tasks is too impotent to be a credible arch-villain?

If "particular task" includes things like writing a letter or even just picking stuff up then yes as the arch-villain is in the end a slave to his minions.

 

[keterys]

Most dragons haven't done the things [MENTION=2518]Derren[/MENTION] mentions, in any edition of D&D. Why would 5E be any different?

Some almost random spells (ex: darkness 3/day), some who can polymorph (mostly good) or use telepathy (especially gem), etc. But if you make it a general aspect of all dragons to do those things, you actually make it less special.

 

[Derren]

Most dragons haven't done the things [MENTION=2518]Derren[/MENTION] mentions, in any edition of D&D. Why would 5E be any different?

You mean the dragons you have run didn't do any of this.
When I design some evil organization or plot I do at least in a very broad sense map out the ways they communicate, get money and otherwise distribute or acquire resources just in case the PCs want to attack them on this ground instead of mindlessly charging in.
And in that regard dragons as BBEG have a lot of problems as without spells they hardly can do anything. Thats also a reason only older dragons tend to rise to BBEG status while younger ones are at best underlings or loners. They simply have not the spells to overcome their physical disadvantages.

 

[MarkB]

If "particular task" includes things like writing a letter or even just picking stuff up then yes as the arch-villain is in the end a slave to his minions.

There are objects that a dragon can't pick up but a human can. But there are also plenty of objects that a human can't pick up but a dragon can. Is a human arch-villain a slave to his larger minions because he can't pick up a wagon, or a boulder?

As for letter writing, yes, most educated humanoids can do it, but fewer can do it well. Hardly any noble lord or king writes their own letters - they employ scribes to do it for them. Anyway, dragon are perfectly competent at writing messages - the fact that most humanoids couldn't pick up the stone slab upon which the message is inscribed doesn't make it any less useful, except from a strictly humanoid-centric viewpoint.

 

[keterys]

You mean the dragons you have run didn't do any of this.

No, I mean the dragons as presented by the game system's monster manuals and such. It's also important to note the "Most".

I actually tend to assume that it's perfectly fair game to give the ability to do mundane tasks (even via magical means) to monsters, whatever that may be. Whether it's a red dragon who uses wisps of flame to etch messages in wood or bellow his orders out so that they crackle from a fire near his target a hundred miles away, I don't need the stat block to let me know it can do it, though I'm happy enough for it to give some suggestions.

It's certainly true that a small number of dragons, typically of a level rarely if ever encountered by PCs, have the abilities that some seem to insist are required to be a Real Dragon TM. To be honest, now that the discussion is happening, I suspect the game would be far more interesting if more dragons required servants for many of these steps, because it provides more interesting methods for the PCs to interact with the dragon's organization, as well as more ways for the dragon to RP with the heroes via proxy.