D&D 5E Where are the whaling vessels? (A.k.a. material for big spenders)

at 15 bucks a pack, the minis line is straight up dolphin territory. The Whales referred to are the high dollar amounts in kickstarter campaigns. Like $2000 to design a mini based on your historical ancestors and have it included in a wargame, or to have your stuff professionally painted.

Whale stuff would honestly probably be licensed through your usual suspects - Sideshow, Gentle Giant, Weta, Hot Toys, etc.

actually Sideshow apparently already sold Drizzt's swords.
http://www.sideshowtoy.com/collectibles/product-archive/?sku=3818

I'm a bit surprised there's not more though. Something like 1/6 scale Drizzt, Elminster, Heroes of the Lance etc figs for $2-300 each.
 

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I spent a lot of money on 3e and 4e RPG books and I'm still spending quite a lot on Numenera and 13th Age RPG books. RPG books is what you have to sell me if you want my hard-earned whale money. I won't buy board games, cards, adventures or novels.

My question to you is: how much material from those books see actual play at your table? Have you played a full Numenera campaign or a full 13th Age campaign since they've been out? For all available levels? Using all available classes/character options? Using all available monsters/threats/plot hooks? How long do you think it would take you to experience even a significant fraction of the options you have at your disposal?

There's totally a population of people out there who buy RPG books and then just read 'em and stick 'em on a shelf, maybe use them as part of their rich galaxy of options. Pathfinder probably sells to a lot of those folks right now. 3e and 4e sold via that strategy, too. So clearly there's a market.

But there is a cost to going after that market. If you're making one game, and you keep splatting it, that game is going to look bloated and unwieldy in short order, and it's going to change so drastically in a few years' time (what with the new options and the better options and the worse options and such) that it creates a HUGE barrier to entry for anyone just picking it up. To be semi-knowledgable about Pathfinder these days, I need to be up to date on SO MUCH INFO, so many options, that if I was using it as my first RPG, I know it'll be too much. Not to mention the simple bloat and analysis paralysis and backpack capacity and more quotidian concerns about volumes upon volumes of unused information.

That hurts your RPG as a whole. You sell to a smaller and smaller number of people, and your books become more and more niche products until you have spiraled out of profitability and BAM, it's time for an edition re-boot, which is much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I don't know that branded content is necessarily the way to go, but thus far, D&D branded content has generally been low-quality, so I don't know what might happen if they suddenly become both branded and critically acclaimed. Certainly if a novel series came out that was as good as half of the fantasy/sci-fi YA novel series, I'd have my interest piqued. And certain formats of adventures (perhaps more sandboxy lairs rather than plotlines) could certainly appeal to me. And I'd totally sit down with a solid D&D mascot fighter on my Wii U with a bunch of friends. And I'd even watch a good action movie that capitalized on D&D. That is all stuff where the D&D brand would sell some stuff to me (assuming it was ALSO good independent of the brand).

I do know that more RPG books is not the answer. A supplement every 3 months or 6 months or 9 months or a year is PLENTY, and the slower the schedule, the more valuable those are.

I'd personally like WotC to figure out how to give me more hours in a day to play D&D with my friends, but that'll probably require bigger cultural changes. ;)
 

at 15 bucks a pack, the minis line is straight up dolphin territory. The Whales referred to are the high dollar amounts in kickstarter campaigns. Like $2000 to design a mini based on your historical ancestors and have it included in a wargame, or to have your stuff professionally painted.

Whale stuff would honestly probably be licensed through your usual suspects - Sideshow, Gentle Giant, Weta, Hot Toys, etc.

actually Sideshow apparently already sold Drizzt's swords.
http://www.sideshowtoy.com/collectibles/product-archive/?sku=3818

I'm a bit surprised there's not more though. Something like 1/6 scale Drizzt, Elminster, Heroes of the Lance etc figs for $2-300 each.

Individually, yes. But the random booster scheme allows for the whales to spend hundreds of dollars to get a complete collection. That's the part I was referring to.
 

I'd personally like WotC to figure out how to give me more hours in a day to play D&D with my friends, but that'll probably require bigger cultural changes. ;)
HOLY MONKEY CHUNKS! WotC is working on a Time Dilation Device™!!! For only $50,000, we'll be able to spend one hour in the real world and six hours at the game table. Awesome.
 

< vast snippage hereabouts > . . .
I'd personally like WotC to figure out how to give me more hours in a day to play D&D with my friends, but that'll probably require bigger cultural changes. ;)

That's the way we're headed: work weeks are already dwindling, as more and more of our daily needs require less and less labor due to such things as automation and renewable energy, as well as our working online (for some) and shopping online, and our receiving news and entertainment the same way.

But that's the future, and it may not be for WotC to implement any more than it is for others to implement.

Enough about the future! What about the past? What's still missing are the historical whaling vessels -- things like scale models of the Pequod (good luck finding any historically accurate image references!) and the famous (infamous?) Catalpa. (YouTube link)
 

My question to you is: how much material from those books see actual play at your table? Have you played a full Numenera campaign or a full 13th Age campaign since they've been out?

<snip>

There's totally a population of people out there who buy RPG books and then just read 'em and stick 'em on a shelf, maybe use them as part of their rich galaxy of options. Pathfinder probably sells to a lot of those folks right now. 3e and 4e sold via that strategy, too. So clearly there's a market.

But there is a cost to going after that market. If you're making one game, and you keep splatting it, that game is going to look bloated and unwieldy in short order

<snip>

That hurts your RPG as a whole. You sell to a smaller and smaller number of people, and your books become more and more niche products until you have spiraled out of profitability and BAM, it's time for an edition re-boot
Ron Edwards wrote an essay about this 15-odd years ago that still seems somewhat apposite to me:

Once upon a time, there was a roleplaying game. It was a spiffy book with glossy covers, in hardback or clothbound, available at Walden's and Kroch's & Brentano's, as well as at Weird Eddie's Roleplaying Emporium down the street. It was not just the one book, nay, it was "supported" by an ongoing stream of supplements detailing rules and settings, and no end was in sight. Customers showed up with their middle-class paychecks in hand, to buy their kids the Third Edition for Christmas. . . . Movie contracts and toy manufacturers beckoned, someday. It was Nirvana. It was the Holy Grail. It was an apple-cart heaped high with gleaming Granny Smiths. It is Ye Olde Myth of roleplaying games. . . .

Exactly two roleplaying games in twenty-five years have managed to latch onto a short-lived teen trend: AD&D in the late 1970s and Vampire in the early 1990s. Trend over? Game over. Especially since now we now know TSR's "reign over the industry" in the 1980s to be a complete mirage. And for everyone else, I ask this: has any roleplaying game ever managed to pay, out of sales profits, for its production and advertising for more than one year? . . .

If you buy into the Myth, be real about what you're selling! It's not a game, it's a book related to a large assortment of stuff. When stuff isn't fashionable any more, it gets ignored. And as far as stuff goes, the RPG itself takes a distant second to t-shirts, jewelry, and coffee mugs. . . .

Roleplaying is not a mainstream activity, it ain't socks and it ain't collectable. We cannot expect an expanding demand . . .

Realize you will probably not make a lot of money. If you want to make a lot of money, pray to get lucky in the teen-trend sweepstakes or find something else to sell.​

Now Edwards is writing as a critic of TSR et al's practices, but his points can easily be flipped around: if you want to make money from selling an RPG, you need to either ride a trend or use your RPG as a pathway to selling something else.

The one point where Edwards seems to be wrong, which relates to your post, is that RPGs are collectables, at least for a smallish market. Most PF subscribers must have more material than they have ever used or will use. I know that I have 5 shelves (a total of 3 metres) of RPG stuff, a fair bit of which I will never use except in the loose sense as "inspiration". Over the past 6 years, when the main RPG I have played has been 4e, I have probably spent around $2000 (Australian dollars) on RPG materials, about 2/3 of that on 4e stuff.

Whether it is feasible to keep a business going selling this sort of stuff to purchasers like me I leave to others to work out! I agree with you that it is not necessarily good for the game that so much material be produced, but as Edwards explains that is a secondary consideration from the business point of view:

[T]he priorities of those who sell roleplaying games are almost entirely opposed to those who actually play them. For most products, this is not the case -- socks are sold to people who wear them, and socks which are not wearable tend not to sell very well; therefore, merchants tend to sell wearable socks. (We'll leave aside the distinction between socks -for-looks and socks -for-action.) For roleplaying games, however, the game-seller's primary interest is to sell tons and tons of books.​

Whether or not those books get used to play the game is irrelevant to a commercial pubisher's business, except in so far as play is a cause of the purchase of more books.
 

tuxego said:
That's the way we're headed: work weeks are already dwindling, as more and more of our daily needs require less and less labor due to such things as automation and renewable energy, as well as our working online (for some) and shopping online, and our receiving news and entertainment the same way.

I like reading about this kind of thing, but it remains to be seen if the Protestant Ethic can endure the unthinkable horrors of leisure time...though that's gone wildly off-topic. ;)

pemerton said:
...RPGs are collectables, at least for a smallish market. Most PF subscribers must have more material than they have ever used or will use

I also have a theory that part of the reason PF has had less extreme diminishing returns than 3e/4e is the subscription model. With that, a purchase is presumed unless otherwise specified, and you can have some small degree of reliability for the future. You don't need to wonder whether anyone is going to buy splat book #58 -- you've got a list of people who've already paid for it, and who expect to pay for #59, too. So as far as this business model goes, they've figured out a pretty good way of doing it.

pemerton said:
I agree with you that it is not necessarily good for the game that so much material be produced, but...that is a secondary consideration from the business point of view

I think it's a consideration when you're thinking about long-term brand health in a business where the brand is worth more than the products. If your brand's origin is a game, and that game has a rep for being divisive, or low-quality, or suffocatingly complex, it's a struggle to get folks to do other stuff associated with the brand.

If all you're interested in is selling books, then you're not thinking at WotC-style scale, I'd wager.
 

I think it's a consideration when you're thinking about long-term brand health in a business where the brand is worth more than the products. If your brand's origin is a game, and that game has a rep for being divisive, or low-quality, or suffocatingly complex, it's a struggle to get folks to do other stuff associated with the brand.

If all you're interested in is selling books, then you're not thinking at WotC-style scale, I'd wager.
Sure. Which goes back to Edwards' point in the essay I cited: WotC is not actually about selling RPGs, it's about selling other stuff to which the RPG is just an adjunct.

This is likely to produce complaints from the RPG customers (much like comics readers complain about Marvel being more focused on movies than on its notionally core business). It may also distort the priorities of the RPG production (as is also claimed in relation to comics) - eg adventure paths that can easily be monetized in other mediums - but that is yet to be seen (and what counts as a distortion is itself a matter of contention).
 

Sure. Which goes back to Edwards' point in the essay I cited: WotC is not actually about selling RPGs, it's about selling other stuff to which the RPG is just an adjunct.

The slightly counter-intuitive thing going on there is that the RPG plays a HUGE role in adding value to the brand, even if it doesn't bring in a lot of money from raw sales. There's some arcane business calculus involved, but suffice it to say that even if WotC isn't selling enough RPG books to light their cigars with $100 bills, selling those RPG books is the biggest reason why they can sell the D&D license to others at a significant mark-up. It is not every brand that reaches 4 hours/week of engagement with over a million people for the last 40 years. The way D&D does that is primarily through the RPG, so the RPG becomes the vehicle for other products.

Compare it to a movie theater model. The movie theaters don't earn a lot of money from showing movies, but the movies are what get people in the door to buy the popcorn and soda that the movie theater makes money off of. But the movies they show are not "just an adjunct" -- those are the things with budgets in the millions and new ones every week and massive technological investments.

In Brand-land, the RPG might be like that movie -- the reason they're able to sell other things.

Not that there's no risk of diluting the RPG, just that if they do that, then they're hurting the brand's value overall, worse than if they make a bad movie or a bad card game or whatever -- it's a poor business decision, because marginalizing that cascades through to the other properties. If a movie theater only showed awful movies, or was known for its Nazi Propaganda nights or whatever, it wouldn't be selling a lot of soda or popcorn.

In other words, the picture is a lot bigger than "what brings in the most money." It often is in large, complex businesses.
 

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