Where did my options go? - The New Paradigm

Lizard said:
Like I said -- apparently, in some games, wizards just keep the PHB and the Spell Compendium on their laps, and pick any spell they like at any time.

In games I'm in, you have:
a)A limited subset of spells to pick from -- you don't get to know every spell in the book (well, unless you're a cleric/druid...), and it's easy for the DM to say, "Sorry, there's no one you can learn that spell from".
b)Of that subset, you can only prepare a limited number.
The spells from the core rulebooks are usually enough. Though splats certainly help.

If people think that not allowing players a day's rest after each encounter, or surprising them with combat in what should be a non-combat situation, or making sure their enemies are just as aware of how the world 'works' as they are and take the same precautions is "unfair" or "screwing the players", well, I'm glad they enjoy their games. I'd be bored stiff.
It all depends on the adventure setup. Some have timelines, where you can't rest after each day. Others don't. But even if you do have a timeline, you will have to rest eventually. Wands of Cure Light Wounds are cheap and effective to extend the day, but if the Clerics is out of the more powerful healing spells, how are you gonna survive the next full-attack of an enemy brute monster? Or two guys with 2 fireballs per day?

Are your characters so divorced from the world that they need do nothing but craft magic items anytime they're not adventuring?)
Sadly, yes. (But craftig takes only 8 hours -that's like a normal work day. You can leave the other 16 hours of the day to sleeping and socializing with your family, friends and allies. They probably don't have so much time during the day, either - daily work doesn't do itself!)
 

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Lizard said:
Like I said -- apparently, in some games, wizards just keep the PHB and the Spell Compendium on their laps, and pick any spell they like at any time.

In games I'm in, you have:
a)A limited subset of spells to pick from -- you don't get to know every spell in the book (well, unless you're a cleric/druid...), and it's easy for the DM to say, "Sorry, there's no one you can learn that spell from".
b)Of that subset, you can only prepare a limited number.
Well if your GM is actively stopping you from learning "powerful" spells, all the power to him. But it can stop players from having fun too. And yes you have a limited subset a day as a caster (wizard or otherwise) thus forcing you to find another use in later encounters (crossbow anyone ?).

If this is certainly true for a time, once the caster get a good number of spells / day and supposing the DM didn't sell him only crappy spells a smart player may become very versatile. Of course this depends of which table your playing and of the tone of the campaign. Myself, I blame the FR for the whole epic trend we've seen since 3E release but of course you're allowed to have your own take on the subject...
 

Lizard said:
Are your characters so divorced from the world that they need do nothing but craft magic items anytime they're not adventuring?)
Depends on the character. The 3rd ed wizard was meant to have d4 hitpoints per level for the very reason that he was so divorced from the world that he didn't spend time doing healthy exercise and suchlike, instead labouring in his workshop or poring over manuscripts in his library.

And I don't think that scribing scrolls that may potentially save his and his party members lives would be a waste of time, in or out of character.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
The spells from the core rulebooks are usually enough. Though splats certainly help.

What I meant was, my wizard has, in his spellbook, maybe twice as many spells as he can cast per day. He doesn't have every spell in the PHB to pick from at the start of the day. He learns a limited number per level, and has to choose carefully which spells he adds to his repertoire.

Sure, you rest eventually. My point was, at each new day, you need to repick your spells, not knowing what the day will bring. Barring painfully obvious hints, you have to spread your spells out among combat and utility. Spells which are especially effective against specific enemies are generally risky to take, since you don't know what will be coming. I don't think I've ever been on adventure where I didn't have a few 'worthless' spells prepped -- spells that would not have been worthless under other circumstances.
 

Lizard said:
Sure, you rest eventually. My point was, at each new day, you need to repick your spells, not knowing what the day will bring. Barring painfully obvious hints, you have to spread your spells out among combat and utility. Spells which are especially effective against specific enemies are generally risky to take, since you don't know what will be coming. I don't think I've ever been on adventure where I didn't have a few 'worthless' spells prepped -- spells that would not have been worthless under other circumstances.

Don't forget, the other school of thought was...

"I've only got so many spells I can prepare per day, and I don't want to waste them. I don't know what the day will bring, but combat is almost a sure bet. So, I prepare nothing but attack spells, and maybe a few defensive spells to make certain everything I prepare is useful. If I have the money, I'll buy scrolls, potions, or wands for anything other spells I might need, and hope I have enough of the right ones."

So, despite having the potential for a wide variety of spells, the vast majority of Wizards and Clerics would tend to prepare the same handful of spells for each level every day, and only changing the basic formula when an obvious obstacle was presenting itself... "We're heading into a Red Dragon's lair, time for some Resist Elements."
 

Reynard said:
Yes, casters were powerful, but the point is that the balancing factors built into the system -- spells/day, lower defenses and hit points and the big fat target on them, not to mention the fact that PCs don't just pick whatever spells they want, they have to acquire them (for wizards anyway) -- /snippage

Umm, what? All wizards gain two spells per level free. No research, no "finding them", no limitations. By 10th level, I will have 18 spells in addition to the ones I start with at 1st level.

That's 18 effects that are easily as powerful as any feat or class ability.

Scrolls take a day, at most, to craft. Even the busiest campaign is going to have a couple of weeks of down time every couple of levels. Poof, there's 14 scrolls. Never mind just going out and BUYING them.

You don't memorize utility spells, you put them on scrolls. Couple of scrolls for each spell and you're good to go in any situation.

This is all pretty basic wizard stuff. Heck, I get the Scribe Scroll feat for free, so the assumption is right there in the rules that I'm going to be using it.
 

Lizard said:
Spells which are especially effective against specific enemies are generally risky to take, since you don't know what will be coming. I don't think I've ever been on adventure where I didn't have a few 'worthless' spells prepped -- spells that would not have been worthless under other circumstances.

That reminds me of the Rogue's Sneak Attack. Totally worthless in some circumstances. Too bad he doesn't have worthwhile ones as well.
 

Hussar said:
Umm, what? All wizards gain two spells per level free. No research, no "finding them", no limitations. By 10th level, I will have 18 spells in addition to the ones I start with at 1st level.

The wizard then has 4 spells per spell level that he gets to choose for free -- which, given the vast array of spells of each level (and that's what we're talking about, right? -- that the wizard is so uber-versatile that he outshines everyone?) he's still pretty limited without a combination of active research and luck. But even if the wizard had access to every spell of every level, he is still limited to his spells per day, which requires that he not only have a decent idea of what to prepare, but also that he conserve them.

Yes, the wizard can get a couple wands for the common use spells and some scrolls for those "just in case" situations, but there's a resource tradeoff here, too: money he is spending on wands and scrolls are not going into stat boosters, wonderous items, and other wealth-essentials. he is choosing to be weaker in order to be more versatile, and for some it is a good trade off.

Personally, I like the fact that every class in 3E and earlier plays completely differently. that's a feature. it means that there's a class or two for everyone around the table, based on their preferences and their capabilities. 3E also improved the basic tactical options of everyone, which meant that no one was ever "useless' (despite protestations to the contrary) while 4E removed those basic tactical options and handed them to specific classes, and at the same time madse every class play the same and be equally complex. it's not a bad idea for a certain playstyle, but it is certainly different.
 


Reynard said:
3E also improved the basic tactical options of everyone, which meant that no one was ever "useless' (despite protestations to the contrary) while 4E removed those basic tactical options and handed them to specific classes, and at the same time madse every class play the same and be equally complex. it's not a bad idea for a certain playstyle, but it is certainly different.
I hardly see which "tactical option" was removed from Martial (4E Terminology) classes. What I see now is that they seriously rethought the way Caster classes worked and decided to create whole classes around older "schools" of play (Blaster, Illusionist, Mind control, Necromancer, Summonner, etc) rather than recreate the Jack-of-all-trade spellcaster we had in earlier edition.

Is it worse or is it better I guess it depend on which experience you had with those classes in previous campaigns. As a regular player of Clreic-type characters I'm happy to see that I'll be able to play a Fighter that is not limited to swing his sword or select crappy Feats...
 

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