Where did my options go? - The New Paradigm

[Hussar]

I like the original post's point-of-view, but I do wish that posts critical or skeptical of the new edition were treated with equal consideration by the community. I also can't say that I see why play options and build options can't co-exist.

I'll take a stab at that one.

The more options you put into the build, the more elements the system must track in order to be balanced. In order to keep balance, you have to reduce play options. Vancian casting is probably the best example of this. Wizards had enormous build options. Virtually unlimited. But, in play, they were limited to X spells/day.

Imagine, if you will, a 3e system where wizards have no daily casting limit. Now you have nearly unlimited play options coupled to unlimited build options. How could you possibly balance the system against this? Or, never mind wizards, how about clerics? Wizards at least were limited by their spell book. Clerics and druids don't have any limits at all.

 

[Lizard]

Really? These don't leap out at you?

Not really, no. The presence of "builds" really keeps me from looking, too. I mean, there it is, all spelled out for you. Why bother poring over the powers looking for Cool Stuff when someone's done all the work?

I've been trying to build an Eladrin fighter (wizard). My main choice is "Take Arcane Initiate at level 1 or take it at level 2", with the other choice being "Take Eladrin Soldier at Level 1 or Level 2". I originally wanted to go Greatsword/no shield, but the advantages of Eladrin Soldier make that really sub-optimal, or so it seems. With one Feat and no skill points, my total choices are pretty limited. There just aren't very many interesting choices to make at first level, or so it seems. The main advantage 4e has in that area is that you can multiclass from level 1, and of the two builds I've tried, that one looks more interesting.

Here's what I ended up with.
Avaliar, Eladrin Fighter (Wizard)
Hit Points: 29 Bloodied 14 Healing Surge 7
Surges: 11
Defenses:AC 19 Will 12 Fort 15 Reflex 14
Init:+1
Str: 16(+3)
Dex: 12(+1)
Con: 14(+2)
Int: 15(+2)
Wis: 12(+1)
Cha: 11(+0)

Endurance +7, Heal +6, Athletics+8, Arcana +9, History +9
Feat:Arcane Initiate

Weapon Talent: 1-handed weapons

Equipment: Scale Armor, Longsword, Longbow, Heavy Shield
+6 vs AC 1d8+3
+3 vs AC 1d10
AW Cleave +6 1d8+3, 3 to adjacent target
AW Sure Strike +8, 1d8
E Passing Attack +6 vs AC, 1d8, secondary +8 vs. AC, 1d8
E Scorching Burst, +2 vs. Reflex, 1d6+1 damage
D Villain's Menace +6 vs AC, 2d8+3, +2 to hit/+4 damage against target till end of encounter, on miss, +1 attack/+2 damage

About the only thing I find really heartening is that his Will defense sucks. Yes, I find this heartening, because I like characters to have strengths and weaknesses, and having defenses which vary by more than 1-2 points means there's some actual mechanical impact to your choices.

I see him using cleave, scorching burst, and passing strike to clear out the rabble, then hit the big bad with Villain's menace.

I dunno. It's not a BAD character, I just didn't feel I had very many choices that weren't deliberately self-screwing. Once I decided I wanted to recreate a classic Elf F/MU, the rest of the decisions seemed made for me.

What other builds are viable -- not just possible, but actually GOOD? Is there any reason to forego Eladrin Soldier? How would you do a Greatsword wielder?

I need to make a few more characters to see if I start finding any interesting and unexpected combos.

EDIT: Fixed will defense, took training in History (Eladrin Education). (Damn, but Eladrin are cool beans. Almost worth the price of admission to 4e. This is what elves SHOULD be, not poncy little traipse-around-the-woods tree huggers.) (Fey step is still annoying from a world building perspective, but I've decided that there's ways to make it work, mostly involving hot pokers.)

 

[hong]

About the only thing I find really heartening is that his Will defense sucks. Yes, I find this heartening, because I like characters to have strengths and weaknesses, and having defenses which vary by more than 1-2 points means there's some actual mechanical impact to your choices.

I see him using cleave, scorching burst, and passing strike to clear out the rabble, then hit the big bad with Villain's menace.

I dunno. It's not a BAD character, I just didn't feel I had very many choices that weren't deliberately self-screwing.

You don't want self-screwing choices, but you like a crap Will def?

 

[SPECTRE666]

Got a long one here for you all.
<Snipped>

-Thank you. This post is pure win.


SPECTRE666

 

[Lizard]

You don't want self-screwing choices, but you like a crap Will def?

Yes -- because it was a natural outgrowth of the other choices I made, not the consequence of me sitting down and saying "I want a low defense".

It means the choices I made *had* *consequences*. I didn't set out to have a low Will defense, I set out to build a character who was first, an effective fighter, and second, could qualify for Arcane Initiate. He needed Strength first, then Intelligence, then Con...I gave him minimal dex, but that still didn't leave me much. Given the choice between Wisdom and Charisma, I figured Wisdom was more mechanically useful and better fit the character concept. Since the two Will stats were both low -- and since his class and equipment synergized to raise the others -- he ended up with a crap Will defense as a side effect of making optimal, or at least seemingly so, choices in other areas. Something had to give.

This is how it should be.

Good game design in action.

(Anyway, it should be one higher...Eladrin racial bonus. Still pretty low, and not likely to go up anytime soon.)

 

[hong]

Yes -- because it was a natural outgrowth of the other choices I made, not the consequence of me sitting down and saying "I want a low defense".

This is important, why?

It means the choices I made *had* *consequences*.

Every choice you make has consequences. Some just happen to be more visible than others.

This is how it should be.

This is exactly how it should not be. Hidden traps to catch people unawares is good for a CCG, not an RPG.

Good game design in action.

This is bad game design in action.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Up until now I've been thinking I'd eventually wind up playing 4E just because it's _the_ game. Let's face it, in-print D&D is the market share of rpgs, and it's the game you're most likely to be able to find a group for.

After having read the OP, I'm genuinely interested in trying it out. I've no plan on ever GMing it, but playing does sound cool.

 

[Lizard]

This is important, why?

Because it meant I had decisions to make.

This is exactly how it should not be. Hidden traps to catch people unawares is good for a CCG, not an RPG.

How is it a hidden trap?

How would you have built the character? Start with standard attribute array. Swapping Con for Wis would, I think, make him a much less effective fighter -- THAT would be deliberately gimping him.

This is bad game design in action.

Hong says 4e has bad game design! Shun him! Shun the unbeliever!

 

[hong]

Oops, misread.

 

[FadedC]

Not really, no. The presence of "builds" really keeps me from looking, too. I mean, there it is, all spelled out for you. Why bother poring over the powers looking for Cool Stuff when someone's done all the work?

??? 3.x had builds and sample characters in the class descriptions too, it never stopped me or anyone else from ignoring them and making their own character. In fact if there is one thing that 3e and 4e has in common it's that trusting in the default build is usually a really bad idea.....