D&D General where did the gods come from?

[Chaosmancer]

This is how you get Boccob, the Uncaring from Greyhawk. He literally doesn't care at all about mortals unless they create a brand new spell or magic item (he's the Archmage of the Gods, i.e. the god of magic). His blessings are given out by underlings, because he just doesn't have time to deal with those stupid mortals

Obviously Greyhawk doesn't run under the "gods need mortals" philosophy, as it predates the Time of Troubles. IMO, I felt this philosophy made sense in the Realms, because it was a punishment for the gods frivolity and direct interference. Outside of the Realms... not so much. In Dragonlance the gods were completely forgotten, but that didn't diminish their power in the slightest on they "returned."

I could be off, because deep Dragonlance Lore isn't my strong suit, but I don't believe the Dragonlance gods were "forgotten" as much as they sealed themselves away from the world themselves. If they did so, then they likely stockpiled enough energy to keep themselves going. Nobody plans to seal themselves in a bunker without making sure they've got enough supplies to survive that experience.

Additionally, a thing we have to keep in mind about all this, is it is really hard to "forget" an active god. Again, I like using DC comics, but can you imagine everyone forgetting Martian Manhunter exists? Sure, maybe if he goes and does work in Asia for a few decades people in America might not think of him immediately, but all it takes is a single trip back down to the states and people would remember him.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

if gods need us for fuel it is kind of not a god, I have heard of no real-world faith that operates of it. gods normally are, it would be like if we need to worship gravity for it to work it stops being fundamental and becomes contingent.

While I claim nothing more than a passing familiarity with the Sumerian creation myths, the Gods, while immanent, did use the humans to lighten their workload in tending to their universe-maintaining mission. It doesn't exactly use the term mana-battery, but how would humans help gods to tend to their portfolio? They even had their chief god try to diminish the number of humans (creating first a flood to remove them all, because they disturbed his sleep, IIRC) and the other gods berated him for such an extreme measure, leading to compromise over creating wild beasts and diseases to keep their number low but enough so they can get the job of doing sacrifices (ie, providing mana) done and Enlil accepting not to flood again or other drastic method again.

It's not "the more the better" but "there is a sweet spot of mana battery number..." but that's just a technicality.

A fantasy reading would be "we created humans as mana-generating entities, but they asked for clerical spells too much, so we removed most of them and we created a setting with lots of wild species wanting to eat the peasants so it stays Points of Light and we aren't bother by megapolis-level of 20th cleric asking for those divine intervention that much... So yes, I approve this owlbear thing, it's frankly silly but hey, that will help curb the human population for some time..."

I agree that we've seen a lot of those god-powered-by-sacrifice in fantasy, to the point of being a tired trope, but it has some semblance of real-life precedent.

 

[Edgar Ironpelt]

It's a world-building decision.
I've had gods that were mighty heroes who ascended to godhood, gods who created the world because that's what gods do, and gods that just mysteriously are.

One thing I do dislike is the idea of "gods need worship." The most I'll do along those lines is to have worship boost a figure into godhood without further worship (or lack of worship) affecting the new god's power afterwards. Or to have religions needing worship, with gods associated with religions and the worship received by gods going to empower their religions rather than the gods personally.

Another thing I'd just as soon avoid is "racial" gods, although in a d&d-land setting I find it hard to do more than tone down slightly. In a non-d&d game, on the other hand, I have a lizardman god who is very popular with the elves, for sound in-universe mythological reasons.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In Quest for Chevar I am writing the gods as a mix.

In a sense, everything has always existed. In the beginning there was the Void, and inside the Void was all that could exist, in a single infinite point. In the Void there was no distinction between physical and spiritual.

Suddenly, the voice that would eventually become Tiamat had a thought, and imagined movement, sound, impulse, light, and there was light, and the single point became creation.

But each of the great voices that awoke from that perfect slumber had thier own ideas, each incompatible with the other, and voices from outside this new Creation whispered to them of ideas that couldn’t exist, and each new creation succumbed to entropy, and the young gods despaired of creating anything, and the voices from beyond quietly rejoiced.

And then the second voice, who awoke as Tiamat imagined the first imagining spoke, and made themself into a multiverse. Physical and spiritual laws were created, and these laws were pervasive, and reliable, and the gods could now truly create.

And the First Gods, who existed in perfectly emptiness before these upstarts began imagining things, were enraged, and made war upon the younger gods.


- The above is a short recap of the beginning of the creation myth of my game’s world.

The gods existed before the universe, and there are things that were aware in their alien way before the eldest gods.

However, apotheosis happens, in part because a human or alfar soul is fundamentally also from that first moment of creation.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Well...

The gods are entities created out of human Belief, Need, and Song. They exist as long as all three exist for them.

The gods are entities existing from deep time, foundational to the workings of the cosmos. They exist as long as the cosmos does.

The gods are entities born within the cosmos, and as such must also die. They exist for their vast lifespans and then fade away.

The gods are entities bestial, with all the mortal drives and needs. They cannot grant power, but with persuasion may personally intervene to assist or protect their worshippers. A stronger god, or simply time, can end them.

The gods are fables, existing solely to comfort, guide, and entertain humans. No power or favor can be bartered for as they are simply tales.

The gods may have grace to bestow or an afterlife to provide, depending on where they came from and their place in the way of things. Their worshippers may have eternity with them, or simply an aeon. After that passes, should the souls remain they may be inherited by a new descendant god, be lost amid the dimensions and planes of existence, or merge with the divinity as a drop of rain merges with the sea.

It all depends.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

This is the question I wonder. Why is Lolth a god, but Zyggotmoy not? Realms gave a reason for Asmodious's ascension, but it doesn't seem like it would apply to all settings. Can he be a god only in the Realms, and just the Prince of Hell everywhere else?

5e actually says a god can have different power levels in different worlds. It also described lesser deities, greater deities, and demigods, as way more fundamentally different from each other than previous editions (in the DMG at least--I'm not sure later products really backed that up).

It drives me crazy because I can't make sense of it. In D&D gods have always been people/creatures who actually live somewhere. They have a divine realm. They can meet each other for a drink or whatever.

What power level are they at home? That's their true power level. And since there is no longer any difference in what spell levels their followers have access to (etc), I can't see how they would even have an effectively different rank regarding their interactions with a particular world. And greater or lesser is not necessarily an in-character designation used for mortals. The closest you can get is to say they are more or less commonly worshipped on different worlds, which is not what the DMG is claiming. The DMG is claiming (as a plausible example) that a single deity is known as Tiamat on most worlds and is a lesser deity embodied in a particular place, while on Krynn she is known as Takhisis, and rather than being limited to a particular body is "beyond mortal comprehension".

Well, which in the Nine Hells is it? What is going on in her divine realm or realms? When she shows up at gathering, what's her power level? And the same can be asked of Asmodeus? If he isn't a god in Baator, how is he supposed to be one in the Forgotten Realms, where he doesn't even live. Does he gain even more phenomenal power if he happens to pop through a portal to Toril, and then just forget it whenever he goes home? Except, once through that portal he apparently is beyond the limitations of a single mortal form and so never actually goes home.

It drives me crazy because it apparently wasn't thought through (nor was the complete redefinition of demigods, which conflicts with past D&D as well as every presentation in 5e other than the DMG).

 

[Edgar Ironpelt]

One campaign idea I've been toying with for some time now is a "Dawn of Creation," aka "There were beings of might in those days - and you are them" game where the PCs are the Eldest Deities at their start and the World Tree is just a sapling. Standard (old school or 3.5) races and classes starting at 1st level - but with very high ability scores and an "elder deity" template of some sort granting a once-per-day access to various epic/divine abilities.

Which the PCs will need because the game world will have earth, sky, the sapling world-tree, and them. They'll have to create everything else, including (and probably starting with) water and fire. (And the sun and moon and stars, and plants and animals, and any hills, mountains or other terrain features beyond flat bare dirt...)

It would be a campaign that answered "Where did the gods come from?" with "You."

 

[jmartkdr2]

For my own (unused) homebrew setting, there's not really a clear distinction of who is and isn't a god - many beings are worshipped and sometimes people will refer to all worshipped beings as "gods," but most are better described by the subset they belong to.

The archangels have always existed as far as anyone not an archangel knows. They don't seek worship for it's own sake or for magical power, but they do see having churches as a good way to influence the world without needing to manifest all the time (which does require a lot of magical power and has many risks). Theoretically, they could just have a bureaucracy but they went with a church way back when and haven't really changed.

The draconics (kolbolds, dragonborn et al) worship Tiamat because she's the Empress and because she enjoys it. Even without worship she'd be the most powerful individual in the setting. They worshipped Bahamut before he died and Io before that. Io enjoyed it (though he wasn't quite as egotistic as Tiamat) and Bahamut tolerated it - and he used it to shape the concept of honor to what he wanted.

The Hochjotun are the closest to what DnD normally calls gods: they're the giant pantheon + Moridin, and they can live without worship. They don't really ask for much worship per se (there aren't a lot of temples and they can't really use sacrifices) but do extol specific virtues because they themselves believe in them.

The Shinma are created by the desires of elves; the elves are created by the dreams of the Shinma. They exist because they are worshipped and know it.

The Ancestor Herds/Packs/Prides of the beastfolk have the social and cultural roles of gods but are really collectives of many spirits. They are revered and enjoy that, though they are more motivated to ensure the continuation of their own tribe/species. Individual spirits do fade over time, so if, say, the Leonin sop having babies the Ancestral Pride will eventually fade away.

In actual play, I find this sort of question rarely matters - if a pc worships a god it might, but I default to working with the player to find the answer for that god. The answer being "it depends on the god" is probably better for both the story and the game than coming up with one answer for all gods.