Level Up (A5E) Where to put ability bonuses during character creation

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree with you, and I think the source of that is the way that in 5e, you have to choose between ASI or Feats. I think a good compromise would be to remove the racials ASI, but allow for both feats AND ASI to be part of a character progression in A5E.

That would help, but you'd still have the issue of a smaller point buy making MAD characters harder to play, and you'd weaken classes that are inherently more MAD.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I agree with you, and I think the source of that is the way that in 5e, you have to choose between ASI or Feats. I think a good compromise would be to remove the racials ASI, but allow for both feats AND ASI to be part of a character progression in A5E.

I think this is best myself. At the ASI levels, you gain a feat and a +1 ASI. This would give you more overall, but keep the lower levels more challenging. I might just do this for our tables and see what others think.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That would help, but you'd still have the issue of a smaller point buy making MAD characters harder to play, and you'd weaken classes that are inherently more MAD.

This can be handled in many ways, really.

One idea: remove the tie of CON to HP. Have your bonus HP be given by your highest ability modifier at the time you level.
Then, no class would need more than two scores really.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This can be handled in many ways, really.

One idea: remove the tie of CON to HP. Have your bonus HP be given by your highest ability modifier at the time you level.
Then, no class would need more than two scores really.

It just seems much simpler to just increase the pool of points.
And your solution doesn't help at all with a character that wants to have a good physical stat, spellcasting stat, and a tertiary mental stat related to skills.

And the game is already balanced to assume both point buy and rolled stats, so using effecively a higher point buy (by having a +1 from race, subrace, culture, background, and class, or whatever) isn't going to change CR calculations, much less break the game. It just means more concepts are viable. No one considers their character Strong when they have a 10 Strength.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

That would help, but you'd still have the issue of a smaller point buy making MAD characters harder to play, and you'd weaken classes that are inherently more MAD.

Maybe something that would help MAD character is to have more class feature affected by proficiency instead of a stat, like we've seen in the last few UAs (this also make multi-classing less fiddly because it removes a little pressure on MAD-ness if you have more than one class which abilities requirement dont align all that much). Maybe the aura of the Paladin could improve with Prof instead of CHA, meaning a Paladin could forgo CHA entirely if he wishes to only use its slots as smite fuel. Maybe the monk DC should come from its Dex or Str, like the battlemaster's maneuver instead of Wis, meaning a monk could go STR over DEX without splitting to much its stats.

As @dnd4vr says in following post, removing CON from HP (line in 4e, lets say) would also allow classes to ease up a little on having a competitive CON score in addition to their other important ability. I'm a big fan of CON score + average HD at 1st level, myself.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It just seems much simpler to just increase the pool of points.
And your solution doesn't help at all with a character that wants to have a good physical stat, spellcasting stat, and a tertiary mental stat related to skills.

And the game is already balanced to assume both point buy and rolled stats, so using effecively a higher point buy (by having a +1 from race, subrace, culture, background, and class, or whatever) isn't going to change CR calculations, much less break the game. It just means more concepts are viable. No one considers their character Strong when they have a 10 Strength.

Sure, if you want them increased. I don't and don't think they need to be.
With current point buy a character can have three 14's and three 10's. How good do you want them to be?! 14 IS good IMO, so you can have three good stats even without racial ASIs. If you are rolling scores (the default), you can easily have even better scores!

Having higher scores won't "break" anything, of course, but for myself it makes it much less enjoyable because there is less challenge.

If everyone else has STR 8, STR 10 is strong, isn't it?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Maybe something that would help MAD character is to have more class feature affected by proficiency instead of a stat, like we've seen in the last few UAs (this also make multi-classing less fiddly because it removes a little pressure on MAD-ness if you have more than one class which abilities requirement dont align all that much).

This is why we changed Unarmored Defense for Monks to 10 + (choice of WIS or DEX) + Proficiency. If you focus on DEX, you will be better at fighting, if you focus on WIS, your DC saves will be higher.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I also agree stat increases via species / background / class is pointless. People are going to go after the stats they want, so just give them a certain amount of point buy points and let them buy what they want. Don't waste time making them decide which combination of this and that species or class to take to gain this or that bonus. Or if people are rolling stats and the DM wants them to have higher stats than 4d6 drop lowest, there are dozens of other rolling method combinations they can use.

And as far as the argument that if you don't let a PC have an exceedingly high stat from the get-go they will just spend their first ASIs to boost their primary stat... isn't that all dependent on how worthwhile you make your feats? If players keep buying up their max stat, it's because your feats aren't worth a damn. Make your feat options better and players won't automatically go straight to +2 to their ASI.

And then for the MAD classes? If this game is being rebuilt to be "Advanced"... build the classes in such a way that the MAD classes who may start with their primary modifier one less than another class (because they have to split their points more evenly) has other abilities to compensate. Either that... or make all the classes MAD by putting some of their class features behind secondary and tertiary stats.

If you go into this project thinking that all the build tropes of current 5E are still going to be there... you've obviously not thought hard enough on how to fix them so that they no longer are a thing in A5E.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Just get rid of them and give each character a feat at 1st level that can be traded by a +2 bonus to any ability score. If we're killing this sacred cow because we don't want to tell players that if you're a dwarf you must be sturdy and strong, telling the same players that all fighters are strong or that all nobles are charismatic is not much better.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure, if you want them increased. I don't and don't think they need to be.
With current point buy a character can have three 14's and three 10's. How good do you want them to be?! 14 IS good IMO, so you can have three good stats even without racial ASIs. If you are rolling scores (the default), you can easily have even better scores!

Having higher scores won't "break" anything, of course, but for myself it makes it much less enjoyable because there is less challenge.

If everyone else has STR 8, STR 10 is strong, isn't it?

Well, no, it's not strong unless most players see it as strong.

And I don't think most people see 14 as good enough for a main stat, and it's pretty hard without race ASIs to have a starting 16 somewhere and have anything else be good.

I think that conflict is more common than being happy with 3 14s.