D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

Eric V

Hero
It's tough on the DM because how do they know if a particular challenge is "very difficult" or "hard?"

It's tough on both the player and the DM because the odds of them seeing the difficulties the same are almost nil. Then it's tough because the player defaults to the DM's judgment (which the game encourages, as it should), and the DM makes the call which likely isn't what the player had in mind, likely causing a reconsideration of the action.

A lot of this has to do with Hussar's point about people not doing the math properly in a snap judgment; I can't tell you how many times I've seen this manifest since I first read him warning about it in games. Caught myself doing it wrong, other GMs, people in non-RPG scenarios...it goes on. Stunts often seem not worth it. In a game like 13th Age which uses the "fail forward" mechanic, it's less of an issue, but that's not D&D.

What 5e could have done is provide examples of skill checks that yield advantages commensurate with how difficult the roll required was. Assuming the person providing the example doesn't fall prey to the bad mathematical thinking Hussar outlines, it would have been really helpful and given players an idea of what to expect.

Another issue that makes judgments difficult is the existence of spells that enhance normal human activity. So if Jump allows X, and Jump is magical, then surely a non-magical human cannot achieve that result. Magic ends up defining what the non-magical can do. It's understandable why DMs would resort to this; for ad hoc situations, find references elsewhere in the game, etc. It can still steal some fun, though.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Parmandur

Book-Friend
So you are going to consider subclasses in 5e but not their equivalent in 4e?
Fighter : Arena Training (DSCS) , Battlerager Vigor (MP) - Brawler Style (MP 2) Fighter Weapon Talent (THW or S&B), Tempest Technique (MP) , These include variations of attribute emphasis and powers and feats associated with them.

Subclass in 5E is more like Class in say, 3.x, so I am not sure those are equivalent at all between 4E and 5E. Those seem more like builds.
 

Imaro

Legend
What 5e could have done is provide examples of skill checks that yield advantages commensurate with how difficult the roll required was. Assuming the person providing the example doesn't fall prey to the bad mathematical thinking Hussar outlines, it would have been really helpful and given players an idea of what to expect.

The problem with this is how are you going to decide what is appropriate here for my particular campaign? If I'm running a campaign with Wuxia tropes or in that genre... running up a sheer wall could be an easy check at any level... but in a GoT-esque campaign an auto-failure so how do you write this section without further narrowing and dictating the type of fantasy I am running with it?
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
The problem with this is how are you going to decide what is appropriate here for my particular campaign? If I'm running a campaign with Wuxia tropes or in that genre... running up a sheer wall could be an easy check at any level... but in a GoT-esque campaign an auto-failure so how do you write this section without further narrowing and dictating the type of fantasy I am running with it?

And the DMG actually does go into that, even saying in the section on a Wuxia campaign to go ahead and preposition the narrative as desired (jumps are longer, etc.) because the math won't break.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
how do you write this section without further narrowing and dictating the type of fantasy I am running with it?
The idea that the spell casting system and beating up house size monsters with shear strength doesn't already narrow it I find flabbergasting
 

Imaro

Legend
And the DMG actually does go into that, even saying in the section on a Wuxia campaign to go ahead and preposition the narrative as desired (jumps are longer, etc.) because the math won't break.

Lol oh I know there's nice advice throughout the 5e DMG around skill use, alternate skill rules, levels of success, etc... but I've noticed that the DMG in general tends to be overlooked or ignored when discussing 5e for some reason.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Magic ends up defining what the non-magical can do. It's understandable why DMs would resort to this; for ad hoc situations, find references elsewhere in the game, etc. It can still steal some fun, though.
Yup this... the idea that it doesn't I do not understand
 

Imaro

Legend
Another issue that makes judgments difficult is the existence of spells that enhance normal human activity. So if Jump allows X, and Jump is magical, then surely a non-magical human cannot achieve that result. Magic ends up defining what the non-magical can do. It's understandable why DMs would resort to this; for ad hoc situations, find references elsewhere in the game, etc. It can still steal some fun, though.

Yeah... no. Guidance provides a +1 to 4 bonus on a skill check and yet proficiency bonus of a non-magical character can exceed it. However you do have a point here... magical does define what the non-magical can do otherwise what's the point of having magic if the same things can be accomplished through either means? That means there's not appreciable difference between having magic or not having it. Now there are games that do this and do it well... Exalted, Scion, Godbound, etc. But they are upfront about the fact that everyone is essentially using magic (even if they are calling it something else like charms).
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Lol oh I know there's nice advice throughout the 5e DMG around skill use, alternate skill rules, levels of success, etc... but I've noticed that the DMG in general tends to be overlooked or ignored when discussing 5e for some reason.

One might suspect that it has not been read as thoroughly as the PHB, which honestly makes sense.
 

Remove ads

Top