D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Garthanos]

And the most popular Class by a longshot is Fighters, so they aren't too gimped for people's fun.

D&D being historically dominantly combat oriented I am sure doesnt hurt the popularity.

 

[Aldarc]

Yes, the spell system is specific, but the Neo-Vancian version is quite good at simulating what you will see in, say Harry Potter or Wheel of Time, a wide variety of media options. And it can be reskinned easily enough.

IMHO, I would strongly disagree with Neo-Vancian being good at simulating the magic in Harry Potter. There is never a sense in Harry Potter about running out of spells, spells per day, spell levels, or having a limited amount of known, memorized, or prepared spells. Spells are more analogous to a skill. They frequently fire these spells off at a rapid pace with little regard for "running out" of a resource. Again, IMHO, I would argue that games like Fate or especially Fate Accelerated, which has a thinly veiled Potterverse-inspired character as an example, are much better with dealing with Potterverse magic than either the Vancian or Neo-Vancian magic of 5e D&D. D&D would probably be one of the last games I would consider when converting Harry Potter.

 

[Parmandur]

IMHO, I would strongly disagree with Neo-Vancian being good at simulating the magic in Harry Potter. There is never a sense in Harry Potter about running out of spells, spells per day, spell levels, or having a limited amount of known, memorized, or prepared spells. Spells are more analogous to a skill. They frequently fire these spells off at a rapid pace with little regard for "running out" of a resource. Again, IMHO, I would argue that games like Fate or especially Fate Accelerated, which has a thinly veiled Potterverse-inspired character as an example, are much better with dealing with Potterverse magic than either the Vancian or Neo-Vancian magic of 5e D&D. D&D would probably be one of the last games I would consider when converting Harry Potter.

Harry Potter is super vague, but the Neo-Vancian system is good at simulating "getting tired" from magical exertion. It is a very, very good fit for the Wheel of Time, as it is descended from the alternative 3.x Channeling system for the Wheel of Time RPG.

 

[Garthanos]

No but your general statements are arguing for it.

Are they really??? Its about as awesome as a level 1 spell this was how skill powers worked the argument is for the value of well defined awesome which give all heroes utility. A warlord who inspires an ally into battle raging with a fearsome continence and also inspires them to do long distance running, is that just like a spell which makes an ally a werewulf or is it a martial awesome. OOPs magic can do that we cannot have the Warlord doing it.

 

[Aldarc]

Harry Potter is super vague, but the Neo-Vancian system is good at simulating "getting tired" from magical exertion.

But you don't get tired though in 5e spellcasting. There are no consequences for being out of spells other than being out of spells. There are other games, again like Blue Rose, which use a skill-based system for magic where fatigue is a potential consequence for magic. 5e is not one of those games good for simulating magical exertion.

It is a very, very good fit for the Wheel of Time, as it is descended from the alternative 3.x Channeling system for the Wheel of Time RPG.

This is kinda circular reasoning though. The WoT RPG was an adaptation of Wheel of Time for the d20 system, and you appear to be saying that 5e is good for WoT because it is similar to the WoT RPG, which was adapted for the d20 system. It's not even an argument about whether WoT was a good fit for for the d20 system. (It wasn't.)

It's okay to like 5e and its Neo-Vancian casting while also recognizing that it's not the best or most appropriate fit for simulating most fictional magic. D&D was not created to be a simulator for a particular fictional work. It came out of wargaming, and back then it was the TTRPG equivalent of a first-person shooter. Much of the D&D framework we inherited comes from its resource game, including its spellcasting. It's a feature. This is what many people cite about D&D's spellcasting system that makes it easy for people to learn. You have a certain number of spells of spell level X than you can cast Y times per day.

 

[Imaro]

Are they really??? Its about as awesome as a level 1 spell this was how skill powers worked the argument is for the value of well defined awesome which give all heroes utility. A warlord who inspires an ally into battle raging with a fearsome continence and also inspires them to do long distance running, is that just like a spell which makes an ally a werewulf or is it a martial awesome. OOPs magic can do that we cannot have the Warlord doing it.

So you talk about replication of level 1 spells and that this is where the conversation started but in the same post...you suggest a warlord who can not only inspire a battle rage but in combination allow for long distance running... and you're really wondering why I was addressing magic as a whole? Can you show me a 1st level spell that would be equivalent to that or have we again moved beyond that?

 

[Parmandur]

But you don't get tired though in 5e spellcasting. There are no consequences for being out of spells other than being out of spells. There are other games, again like Blue Rose, which use a skill-based system for magic where fatigue is a potential consequence for magic. 5e is not one of those games good for simulating magical exertion.

This is kinda circular reasoning though. The WoT RPG was an adaptation of Wheel of Time for the d20 system, and you appear to be saying that 5e is good for WoT because it is similar to the WoT RPG, which was adapted for the d20 system. It's not even an argument about whether WoT was a good fit for for the d20 system. (It wasn't.)

It's okay to like 5e and its Neo-Vancian casting while also recognizing that it's not the best or most appropriate fit for simulating most fictional magic. D&D was not created to be a simulator for a particular fictional work. It came out of wargaming, and back then it was the TTRPG equivalent of a first-person shooter. Much of the D&D framework we inherited comes from its resource game, including its spellcasting. It's a feature. This is what many people cite about D&D's spellcasting system that makes it easy for people to learn. You have a certain number of spells of spell level X than you can cast Y times per day.

The spell "slots" are rather easy to think of as a representation of losing magical "energy," since they are basically lo-definition spell points. That's how I've see newbs interpret them in practice (again, practice over theory).

 

[Garthanos]

So you talk about replication level 1 spells

That was to point out that even a paltry level 1 spell is too awesome for martial types in your game. It is cast as epic when everyone really knows it isnt. (even adjusted to an at-will it isnt)

but in the same post that you suggest a warlord who can not only inspire a battle rage but in combination allow for long distance running ... and you're really wondering why I was addressing magic as a whole?

You are right level of the effect isn't the issue and I was responding to your cue i was branching into your martial and magic cannot do the same things. Sometimes they can do things that are very similar and constantly dodging that is a problem.

 

[Eric V]

Of course, the Guidance cantrip which is basically the equivalent of a steroid might debunk the whole argument.

Yup this... the idea that it doesn't I do not understand

 

[Imaro]

That was to point out that even a paltry level 1 spell is too awesome for martial types in your game. It is cast as epic when everyone really knows it isnt. (even adjusted to an at-will it isnt)

My game is 5e, some of the Battlemaster maneuvers are more awesome than a paltry level 1 spell...