Wherefore Orcs?

[hellbender]

What Wicht said, read the preface to the books. For crying out loud, why is this a big deal? So he saw a word and borrowed it, big deal. I doubt the Denham Tracts, while obscure, were out of reach of an English professor at Oxford. Do we all agree a goblin is smaller than an orc? A troll is a large sized creature? A hobbit is a small demi-human?

Tolkien never says hobbits are great wizards, just that they have the 'everyday sort of magic', and that they are 'little people'. Fey-like qualities, no? That is already more detail than the Denham Tracts gives.

hellbender

 

[Steverooo]

It Proves Nothing

So "Hobbits" are mentioned in the Denham Tracts, which Tolkien may or may not have ever seen. So what? IF he had seen them, and IF he had unconsciously (or even consciously) re-used the name, so what?

Tolkien recycled many names from the Elder Eddas of the Norse, including "Gandalf", and many of the names of the Dwarves (Balin, Dwaling, Fundin, Kili, and Fili, IIRC).

Perhaps Tolkien borrowed the unused name "Hobbit" from a race of spirits no one had heard of in years, and made a race to fit them. He certainly borrowed the name of the Dwarf, Gandalf, and created an Istari to fit it! Does that mean that he "stole" the Hobbit? Hardly! He created everything we know about them.

Why, every word he used to write his novels was borrowed from SOMEWHERE, in SOME language! Does that make his work unoriginal?

 

[hellbender]

Just more annoying that hobbit was stricken from 1e allegedly because of a conflict with the Tolkien estate. And really, it doesn't matter. Now, not to hijack, but how Games Workshop has trademarked the word 'Eldar' (referring to space elves) is more of a mindboggler. The Silmarillion mentions Eldar in referring to elves (albeit not spacefaring ones).

hellbender

 

[Agback]

So. What's up with the orc? Any thoughts?

They are boring. Apart from being little and dark-skinned and evil they are completely without attributes or character.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

Think of Pork, then think of boar-men...those are the origins of Orcs. Of course, they've come far from those, but in general a piggy, tusked beast of power and stupidity is at least in flavor similar to a D&D/Tolkien Orc, though their swine influences are less prominent.

There is nothing pig-like about Tolkien's orcs. They are fanged, not tusked, clawed, not hoofed. And they don't have pig-like snouts.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Particle_Man]

An old (pre-Tolkein) fantasy/horror book called "The House on the Borderlands" mentions pig-like beings that reminded me a lot of the 1st ed. D&D orcs.

 

[andrew]

Find a copy of An Encyclopedia of Fairies, Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and other supernatural Creatures by Katharine Briggs and look up the entry on Denham Tracts, The (pg 93-94)

It contains the quote in question and is probably easier to find a copy of than the actual Denham Tracts.

Just for kicks, I'm going to look up the Denham tracts. I'm pretty sure there are a few editions and reprints floating around.

 

[Li Shenron]

The only thing I know of might be the Orculli and Norggen, small descendants of Orchi (large and malevolent giants). They're a legend of northern Italy, I think.

===
Mark Plemmons
Kenzer and Company
www.kenzerco.com
===

I don't know which could be the literature origin, but I am Italian and in all the bedtime stories my parents or grandparents used to read me when I was a child the evil villain is either a Strega (Witch) or an Orco, typically bigger than human (but not giant), ugly, savage, stupid and smelly, eat children and live in the wilderness. It could be either a D&D Orc or Ogre, and in fact the italian translation of past D&D has been quite ambiguous: IIRC in AD&D Ogres were Orchi (pron. Orkee) and Orcs were Orchetti (pron. Orcatty - which sounds pretty lame for what they are); in 3e Orcs became Orchi and Ogres are left like that.

 

[Cthulhu's Librarian]

Just for kicks, I'm going to look up the Denham tracts. I'm pretty sure there are a few editions and reprints floating around.

I just found the Denham Tracts at the University of Virginia's Alderman Library (where I work). The 2 volumes were published in 1891 & 1895, and are reprints of the original Tracts. Guess I've got some more reading material.

(Edit-removed URL, would not link to library item record)

 

[Gwarok]

Yanno Tolkein lifted a great many of his ideas from past mythology. His goal was to weave from the legends of the past a new mythology for the british isles, something for them to call their own. Ancient Scandinavian lore is rife with tales of One Eyed Evil lords that needed to be destroyed, and the Ringquest was central to many stories. Odin himself didn't become leader of the norse gods till he obtained his fabled ring that could duplicate itself. Seigfried slew a wurm by stabbing it in the belly while in a ditch, as did Tuor when he took out Glarung. And the whole life-death-rebirth saga of the hero is there as well. But what tolkein did is weave it new and fresh, took old tales and made them new. That was his genius.

And altho he din't create the name orc, he certainly is responsible for it coming to stand for what it does today. Namely a brutish thug that usually serves something and comes in huge numbers. Whether they have tusks or fangs seems immaterial to me, they are the ultimate flunkies and symbol of the never ending tide of evil.