D&D 3E/3.5 Which 3.5 spells aren't improvements

[Terath Ninir]

I must have grabbed my 3.0 PHB (which I still keep out) when I last looked at cloudkill. My bad.

Shield provides a force shield effect, which makes sense since that's what the spell is *supposed* to be. So it protects against incorporeal touch attacks, though, granted, not all of them. And the "shield" bonus type is one that a wizard rarely can fill up, so it is useful in that way. So I'd call it useful, but not great. I think a "greater shield" (3rd level or so) that has the same effects but mage armor's duration would be more useful and not unbalanced.

Identify is both more and less useful. Sure, you get all the info, but on only one item. I've never understood the outrageous cost of the spell. It's a very silly and pointless attempt at game balance. I never use the cost, myself. But having a high-level loremaster in the party helps. They get identify as an Extraordinary power, so they don't have to pay the gp cost. Greater Lore, 6th level ability. No gp cost, no number of uses per day. Use it before WotC nerfs it!

Baleful Polymorph goes back to the original intent of Polymorph Other -- you turn your enemy into a frog, and then you step on them. However, it removes the uses of Polymorph Other that evolved in the game since its inception. That's why I think a Greater Baleful Polymorph is a good idea -- so you can turn the guy into a walrus on the ladder. Lovely, evil idea that, that violates neither the letter nor the spirit of the spell.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

None of those seem particularly abusive to me.

Disintegrate is a 6th level spell capable of doing 40d6 to a single target.

Sure there's a save but it's in the same ballpark (and isn't shut down by energy resistance or the resist energy spell).

Sure, you can make Scorching Ray 8th level. Maximize, Empower, and Enlarge it for somewhere around 93 points of damage against a single target halfway between short and medium range. Of course, you could also use Polar Ray for quite a bit of damage (an average of 55 or so--more at higher levels) at longer range. And Polar Ray isn't shut down by energy resistances or Resist Energy to nearly the same extent. (Not to mention, it's a rather weak spell for 8th level). At 9th level, Scorching Ray could be Energy Admixed and Maximized for 144 points of damage. On the other hand, Meteor swarm does 84 points of damage or so with no save and then a similar amount of area effect damage with a save. Total (assuming the save is failed) 168 points of damage or so to one target plus damage to other targets in the area. And, of course, the meta-magicked scorching rays are stopped by minor globes of invulnerability, etc.

It's a nifty spell and it's worth using nearly all the meta-magic feats on but it doen't blow good high level spells out of the water. That's much better than the situation where metamagicked spells are worse than other spells of their level. If the meta-magicked spells aren't good choices at their effective levels, there's no reason to spend feats on meta-magic.

Scorching Ray isn't abusive, but it can be abused with metamagic.

At 11th level you get 3 rays -- add Maximize spell and you have a 5th level spell which can do 72 points of damage. If Twin Spell or Energy Substitution is available, you can have a 6th level spell doing 24d6 to one target.

The 3.0 -> 3.5 spell change that bugs me the most is identify. Sure, it only takes an hour to cast, but now it's a single item only -- which means 100gp to identify any item, even a 1st level scroll or potion. Yuck. And still no mid-level that improves upon it until Analyze Dweomer.

 

[Thanee]

And the point was that Baleful does not allow the options that PolyOther did.

Polymorph Other was one of the most broken spells in 3.0 (along with Haste and Harm). It simply had to be fixed!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Falling Icicle]

Identify
Targets: Up to 1 touched object per level

3.0 PHB, pg 216

Oh, excuse me. Still, I would rather identify all of one item's properties than identify only the weakest power of several items.

 

[0-hr]

One that caught me (and my sorceror) off guard was Lightning Bolt's loss of the "wide" option. It's now always 5ft wide.

 

[beaver1024]

The only changes that are acceptable are Haste, Harm, Heal, Meteor Swarm, Ray of Enfeeblement and Gate. Everything else is mostly worse than it was in 3.0.

 

[PaulGreystoke]

One that caught me (and my sorceror) off guard was Lightning Bolt's loss of the "wide" option. It's now always 5ft wide.

That depends on what line of effect you choose. It is not too hard to manuever so you can angle the spell in 3.5 so that that it has an effective 10 ft width for most of its length. Just fire it straight along a line of squares & it effects the squares along both sides of the line. For example:
CXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
OXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Where C is the caster & X denotes squares in the line of effect. [& O is a space filler. ]

Firing on the diagonal gets an alternating pattern of 5 & 10 ft widths:

CX
XXX
OXXX
OOXXX
OOOXXX
OOOOXXX
OOOOOXXX

 

[Stormrunner]

I'm kind of curious as to why any wizard or sorcerer would learn shield over mage armor now. Both provide the same AC benefit, but mage armor lasts 60 times as long *and* can be cast on other people. I can see learning both since they give different bonus types, but if you could only pick up one, why take shield?

If you have bracers of armor?
Or (perish the thought) actual armor?

 

[Psion]

The 3.0 -> 3.5 spell change that bugs me the most is identify. Sure, it only takes an hour to cast, but now it's a single item only -- which means 100gp to identify any item, even a 1st level scroll or potion. Yuck. And still no mid-level that improves upon it until Analyze Dweomer.

I have my own house rule that I will probably continue to use.

 

[Psion]

Oh, excuse me. Still, I would rather identify all of one item's properties than identify only the weakest power of several items.

I don't like either one. It demystifies magic items too much AFAIAC.

My house rule has it identifying 1 property per level, regardless of magic items.

The first/weakest property is automatic. Getting the second requires a Spellcraft check DC = 10 + item caster levels. For each +5, an additional property is identified, up to the max allowed by the spell.

So in play, the wizard sets about identifying a pile of magic items. But he make the check and notices that there is something else about one of the items, and spends more time extracting its purposes.