Which character generator is best-E-tools or PCgen?

[Darth K'Trava]

I've used etools (the 3.0 version) alot. It works pretty good although you can't take into account for +1 weapons or +2 holy weapons at all. I'm wondering if the new version by code monkey takes this into account and if it also takes into account for anyone playing ecl races and such... before I decide to plunk down the money for the program...

 

[kingpaul]

Actually, I don't think its even legal to distribute datasets you create for stuff you've make up yourself, so don't expect to find much on the web anymore.

Well, it depends upon where the datasets were created from, and for what program. If for eTools, it doesn't matter if the source was OGC or not. Per CMP, WotC's stance is that non-WotC-licensees can't distribute datasets for eTools. I'll see if I can find the link on their message boards where Mynex made that statement.

Now, for PCGen. If the source is OGC, then there is no problem with distribution, as long as you follow the OGL. Case in point, Privateer Press has a dataset for Iron Kingdoms up (its old, and, more than likely, won't work in the current code base).

 

[kingpaul]

I used to be a big PCGen supporter, but no longer. Two reasons. (1) Horrible interface. and (2) Lack of focus. In trying to do everything, PCGen does nothing well.

The UI issue I know about. However, I've not heard a 'lack of focus' complaint before. Would you mind expanding upon that? Thanks.

 

[Joshua Randall]

By lack of focus, I mean that PCGen insists on catering to every random d20 supplement on the planet, rather than making a strong, robust product that handles the D&D core rules and handles them well. Instead of spending thousands of hours getting PCGen to work with Random d20 Company Release X, how about getting it to properly apply the benefit for a cleric taking the War domain. Or fixing any of the other numerous bugs that make it unreliable for standard D&D characters.

The fact that some known bugs have persisted through the last half-dozen releases is inexcusable.

 

[kingpaul]

By lack of focus, I mean that PCGen insists on catering to every random d20 supplement on the planet

I'm not sure what you mean by this. PCGen doesn't have every d20 supplement in it...far from it.

how about getting it to properly apply the benefit for a cleric taking the War domain.

Is this the weapon proficiency issue for clerics that don't have a deity? Looking at the rules, you get proficiency and Weapon Focus with the deity's favored weapon. I've seen requests to make it so you can choose the weapon if you don't have a deity, but, as I stated, the SRD has 'deity' in the description, so that's how we've implemented the dataset.

Now, if you have a cleric that has a deity that has a favored weapon and War doesn't work, I'm not aware of that issue.

Or fixing any of the other numerous bugs that make it unreliable for standard D&D characters.

The fact that some known bugs have persisted through the last half-dozen releases is inexcusable.

Which bugs are you referring to in particular? as the Tracker Silverback, I'll see about prioritizing stuff around.

 

[Joshua Randall]

PCGen doesn't have every d20 supplement in it...far from it.

Come on, Paul. You knew that when I said "every" d20 publisher, I was using hyperbole. Suffice it to say that there are dozens? scores? of supported publishers, yet support for the D&D core rules / RSRD is still spotty. PCGen seems willing to bend over backwards to accommodate the bizarre mutations of the d20 rules that third-party publishers create, but not willing to set up a rigorous testing cycle for RSRD functions.

As for which bugs are still prevelent -- I admitted earlier in this thread that I no longer use PCGen (have switched to DM Genie), so I no longer keep up on the status of all the bugs. But some of the persistent bugs I can think of right now are:

* dwarven waraxe - is it martial? exotic? one-handed? two-handed? Pick your favorite interpretation and implement it. Make an exception for dwarves. Furthermore, when you take Weapon Focus with the waraxe, you should actually get a +1 attack bonus.
* weapon focus in general - sometimes doesn't apply the +1 attack bonus.
* auto-generated masterwork and magic items - were still completely screwed, last I checked.
* items in general - lots of silly errors in the item list, like containers not tagged as such (so you can't put anything in them) or incorrect weights or prices.
* un/holy or anarchic/axiomatic weapons - incorrectly imposing negative levels even on evil/good or chaotic/lawful wielders.
* The entire way the end-user can create custom entries, using the built-in PCGen tools, is completely screwed. The tool will mangle the .lst files (e.g. for character classes) so that they're unworkable. You then have to go in an manually edit them, which requires keeping track of the ever-changing .lst syntax and tags.

The fact of the matter is that I cannot trust PCGen accurately to determine relatively simple game functions like attack bonuses or weapon damage. And that makes the tool worthless to me -- if I have to check PCGen's math, I may as well just use pencil and paper to begin with.

 

[jujutsunerd]

PCGen's craptacular java UI

Hey, don't blame java for pcgen's UI. Blame us programmers instead.

<blatant overgeneralization>Programmers tend to not care too much about appearance, instead preferring functionality, quite possibly because they haven't got a clue about how to make programs look good.</blatant overgeneralization> I know *I* don't have a clue about how to make stuff look good.

/Jonas, who occasionally feels that anything that can't be done on a VT100 terminal shouldn't be done at all. ;-)

 

[3catcircus]

Funny - not one character generator works well.

I use a combination of DnDCharbook from RPGSheets website, along with Heroforge, depending upon what character I want to build, along with a customized Steve's Spell Sheets 3.5.

What I need is a character generator that is easy to use, is fast (DnDCharBook seems slightly faster than Heroforge), that is complete (all WoTC-published books), that is dynamic (3.0 splatbook feat automatically, gets replaced by it's 3.5 Complete... Book equivalent, for example.), that helps me (show me what I need to be eligibile for a feat or PrC, for example) and is expandable (allows me to enter new information easily, as new books are published, the recent OA updates for Kara-Tur & 3.5 in Dragon 315, 318, for example.)

Unfortunately, nothing out there does this as well as my brain - except that I, like many DMs, have more ideas than time.

For example, I want to be able to whip up an OA Monk 10 / Shintao Monk 5, and be able to select the updated 3.5 feats, re-adjusted for Kara-Tur. I want to be able to whip up a Clr/Black Flame Zealot. I want to be able to whip up a Noble Fighter (Aristocrat/Fighter), I want to be able to whip up a Kobold Fighter/Cleric. I want to be able to implement Scott Bennie's Old Empires PDF or the d20 Arabian Nights/Zakhara PDF.

No one product currently does this.

I don't trust PCGEN's math, and also feel anger at the fact that dozens of people put together a *ton* of 3.0 material (splat books, FR books, Living Greyhawk, Spycraft, etc) that PCGEN included up through Rev 2.73 and CMP then has the nerve to turn around and demand money for that information in the form of data packs with the advent of Rev 3.0+

A new character generator (Grail, available from RPGsheets.com) looks promising, but would require that I enter the stats of non-core information (i.e. tell it what a prestige class's BAB and Save progression is, what abilities I get for each level, etc.)

I really want a piece of software that does all of the calculations and contains all of the information so that I can generate a statblock or character sheet, for example, during my lunch hour at work when I don't have access to my books.

 

[kingpaul]

I don't trust PCGEN's math, and also feel anger at the fact that dozens of people put together a *ton* of 3.0 material (splat books, FR books, Living Greyhawk, Spycraft, etc) that PCGEN included up through Rev 2.73 and CMP then has the nerve to turn around and demand money for that information in the form of data packs with the advent of Rev 3.0+

The PCGen team sat down with the WotC team at GenCon 2002. WotC informed PCGen that, by including the closed source books (splat books, FR material, etc), that we were violating WotC's copyright and IP. It was at that time that those datasets were removed.

CMP is a separate entity and is a licensee of WotC. As such, they have permission to create and distribute datasets for WotC's closed content books. They created their datasets from scratch and did not copy the work of others who had donated datasets.

As for Spycraft, there was licensing issues with that as well. AEG had received permission from WotC to utilize Class Defense and WP/VP. These items were not, then, open content. Because of that, these datasets were removed. Now that Unearthed Arcana (a mostsly OGC book) is out, those items are now OGC. As such, Spycraft is now back in PCGen.

 

[Mynex]

I don't trust PCGEN's math, and also feel anger at the fact that dozens of people put together a *ton* of 3.0 material (splat books, FR books, Living Greyhawk, Spycraft, etc) that PCGEN included up through Rev 2.73 and CMP then has the nerve to turn around and demand money for that information in the form of data packs with the advent of Rev 3.0+

Funny, considering I did a vast majority of those books back at the time, that I kept them up to date back at the time. I recall about 5 or 6 people that worked on various books back at the time other than myself, not dozens, PCGen has NEVER had dozens of data volunteers. However, as Paul explained, pulling the Wizards material then was at their request.

CMP was formed to try and get that information back into PCGen, sorry if that doesn't sit well with you but this bit of misinfornation is also about 2 years out of date.

As for Spycraft, CMP had nothing to do with Spycraft, other than offering to give it a hosting place because of licensing, so don't lay that at our door step.

Whatever you're problem is with CMP, please refrain from spreading misinformation. Unless you were at the meeting with Anthony Valterra back in 2002 at GenCon, you have no idea what occurred.

Now, to keep this on topic, we had for almost 9 months on our forums, a 'wish list area' for RPG Toolkit (What was formerly called the rewrite of e-Tools for lack of a better name)... This list included every pie-in-the-sky request people could dream up. We've taken that list, broken it down into 'Core program', 'Add-on', and 'not a chance' (Okay, we as GM's do NOT need to track the migratory patterns of animals during the seasons in a program automatically or GPS positioning of characters on a map - cool as those are, that's just insane. ).

The big things for the core are (generalizing);
1. Correctness (math & rules implementation)
2. Flexibility
3. Fully functioning Editors


We're focusing on those 3 areas for RPG Toolkit... With the years of PCGen Coding, fixing e-Tools, the licensing factor with Wizards, and just the amount of anal retentiveness in our gaming/coding experience, doing things from the ground up (as opposed to inheriting someone else's work), not as an Open Source project (i.e. 1 vision/direction, not 30), we'll be able to address these core issues in a very direct, concise manner.

Do we expect that RPG Toolkit will be right for everyone? Nope. Someone will always find fault with a program, that's just the way it is. But our desire is that we will build the character generator that most people have wanted since 3.0 was released, and that's all we can aim for, pleasing as many people as possible, instead of trying to please all people and failing.