Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[Storyteller01]

This I think is a big crux of the Cleric issue.

I dont feel they really have to be optimized. Now, the player has to know the stuff is there and use it, but most of their power lies in their spells and their inherent class features (hit points, saves, armor profs etc). They dont really need a lot of special feats or anything to be able to do a lot of stuff.

Agreed, but their nature lends itself to some measure of focus. If you're good, you gain x abilities and spells. If your evil, you gain y abilities and spells. If your neutral you get to choose x or y, but you can't gain full use of all the lawful/chaotic/good/evil items and toys out there. There are ways of mixing and matching, but the pattern tends to stand.

 

[IamIan]

That is a good grappler build for a monk. The problem is that the Fighter will either have a Grapple check of 1 lower (Monk has Improved Grapple, Fighter has 3 more BAB) or 3 more (if both take Improved Grapple, and many fighters do), so keeping him grappled won't be easy.

I agree.... a Fighter who gave up armor and weapons and went with a grapple build could be +3 Grapple better but would only do d4+9 istead of Monk's d10+9.... of couse a barbarian build would be better yet with Rage adding to Str for Grapple..... the point is that the monk is capable of specializing to be competative in many various fields.... the monk also can move into grapple allot faster than the fighter... but the fighter get more other feats.... and the Monk gets all saves are good....

specializing allows a class to excelle greatly... a fighter who tried to multi-task with weapons... armor... etc.... would have spent money there and not focused on the grapple build and could have been a good grappler but not nearly as good as a dedicated speciazed grapple character...

Monks have a great ability to specialize especially by high levels.... Clerics to me give up this specializing power in favor of being better than average at allot of things... but the only thing a cleric can still shine in and specialize well is as a healer... the class forces a sertain amount of jack of all tradeness... which being able to do a wide variety of things can be useful in a wide variety of situations but loses the ability to excelle... being good at a lot of things is not in my opinion better than being able to specialize.... yes it still has value but versatility I do not think beats specialization.

 

[Rystil Arden]

It's an AC 13 character with less than 50 hit points who's main shtick is to run in among his enemies and get rid of his Dex bonus to AC.

If he survived a single session I'd be awed by his incredible luck. Typical monk build though. A couple of shiny, yet very situational, combat abilities, but the character is an easy target with all the toughness of wet toilet paper.

Oh I agree that it's not a survivable character, but it's still a good grappler for a monk--monks are just generally weak

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree.... a Fighter who gave up armor and weapons and went with a grapple build could be +3 Grapple better but would only do d4+9 istead of Monk's d10+9.... of couse a barbarian build would be better yet with Rage adding to Str for Grapple..... the point is that the monk is capable of specializing to be competative in many various fields.... the monk also can move into grapple allot faster than the fighter... but the fighter get more other feats.... and the Monk gets all saves are good....

specializing allows a class to excelle greatly... a fighter who tried to multi-task with weapons... armor... etc.... would have spent money there and not focused on the grapple build and could have been a good grappler but not nearly as good as a dedicated speciazed grapple character...

Dude, the fighter doesn't give up any of his weapons and armour. He just spends one feat on either Close Quarters Fighting or Improved Grapple (and Kord knows he has plenty of feats to spare).

 

[IamIan]

Dude, the fighter doesn't give up any of his weapons and armour. He just spends one feat on either Close Quarters Fighting or Improved Grapple (and Kord knows he has plenty of feats to spare).

Without 36,000 spent on belt of Giant Strength... he loses +6 to Strength...

the monk can get the same feats to help...

Without the Belt using up the vast chunk of money instead of buying +1 or +2 weapons and armor...

the Fighter is 6 lower in Str.... -3 to Grapple cancels his +3 from Base Attack....

but Monk is still doing d10+9 but the less strength fighter now is even on grapple bonuses but only does d4+6....

so if he spends the money on Magic weapons and armor instead ... yes he is a weaker grappler... but has better to hit and better AC...

and what feat would let you deal with the 90 Speed Monk Spring attacking you from 45 ~ 50 feat away and then being 40 ~ 45 feet away after ???

 

[Aus_Snow]

I vote with the majority here: Cleric and Druid. Also, had Psion been on there, it would get my 'first' vote (or my only vote, if there had to be only one).

All from subjective player/GM experience, but there ya go, what else is it going to be based on.

 

[DM_Matt]

Without 36,000 spent on belt of Giant Strength... he loses +6 to Strength...

the monk can get the same feats to help...

Without the Belt using up the vast chunk of money instead of buying +1 or +2 weapons and armor...

the Fighter is 6 lower in Str.... -3 to Grapple cancels his +3 from Base Attack....

but Monk is still doing d10+9 but the less strength fighter now is even on grapple bonuses but only does d4+6....

so if he spends the money on Magic weapons and armor instead ... yes he is a weaker grappler... but has better to hit and better AC...

and what feat would let you deal with the 90 Speed Monk Spring attacking you from 45 ~ 50 feat away and then being 40 ~ 45 feet away after ???

Oooh, if the fighter has no equiptment and chooses to wrestle the monk, the monk wins. Oooh, boy, he's the greatest!.

I just finished a camapign that went from L3 to L19. If you attacked the cleric, a Core + BOED only char, shesd laugh beucase she has perma-FoM on her armor (she was an Ocean-centered cleric, so FoM was important to her), then, at L10, if you were evil, she would use a a metamagic rod and hit you with an Empowered Purified Hammer of Rightiousness for 30d6, fort for half. You make your save, and die anyway. In fact, that damage would probably scale such taht at any level beyond that she would kill you in one round, esp once Quicken came into the picture. Oh, and she'd have done it form the comfort of her controlled via turning air elemntal in the sky.

 

[Shin Okada]

Without 36,000 spent on belt of Giant Strength... he loses +6 to Strength...

I can't get it. If a Monk can buy Belt of Giant Strength +6, a Fighter can. For the money a fighter spends on weapon and armor, a monk usually buy a lot of defensive/ability score enhancing items such as Ring of Protection, Amulet of Health (a very hard choice against periapt of wisdom), Bracers of Armor, Gloves of Dexterity and such. Even with all those items, a monk tend to have lower AC then fighter types. In my experience, when both have the same amount of money, that is a Monk who can afford better Belt of Strength Later.

and what feat would let you deal with the 90 Speed Monk Spring attacking you from 45 ~ 50 feat away and then being 40 ~ 45 feet away after ???

No feat needed. Just ready an attack. Now both combatants attack once/turn. If both sides attack once/turn, a monk loses because he has lower attack bonus, lower AC, and lower damages. Spring attack build is a really bad idea when someone does not hit hard on each blow.

Clerics to me give up this specializing power in favor of being better than average at allot of things... but the only thing a cleric can still shine in and specialize well is as a healer...

If you are still thinking so, It seems obvious that you have never met a player who try to use a cleric as an active adventurer. Yes clerics are the best healer. But healing is not the only specialization of them.

#Turning undead
#Buffing
#Diviner
....... there are things only gods know. Also don't forget Invisibility Purge, True Seeing, etc.
#Save or die (or incapacitate) spells
...... at least equally powerful as wizards.
#Movement/travel spells
...... especially in the area of planer travel. and it is also important that clerics don't need to choose those situational spells as spells known. all of them know those spells automatically.
#Item Creation
...... also thanks to the fact that they know all the spells in their class list. And remember you need Holy Smite to create holy weapons.
#Survival
...... actually, considering the fact that they can wear magic heavy armor, I say clerics are more survival than monks in overall.

On the other hand, Monks specialize in what? They don't have any active role other than fighting in melee and they are descent at best in that area. Fast movement it not that much significant when spell casters can move themselves or other melee combatant via spells. Survivability against spells and special effects? Can't be significant when monks are relatively vulnerable against something without saves (including melee attacks).

 

[Storyteller01]

If you are still thinking so, It seems obvious that you have never met a player who try to use a cleric as an active adventurer. Yes clerics are the best healer. But healing is not the only specialization of them.

#Turning undead
#Buffing
#Diviner
....... there are things only gods know. Also don't forget Invisibility Purge, True Seeing, etc.
#Save or die (or incapacitate) spells
...... at least equally powerful as wizards.
#Movement/travel spells
...... especially in the area of planer travel. and it is also important that clerics don't need to choose those situational spells as spells known. all of them know those spells automatically.
#Item Creation
...... also thanks to the fact that they know all the spells in their class list. And remember you need Holy Smite to create holy weapons.
#Survival
...... actually, considering the fact that they can wear magic heavy armor, I say clerics are more survival than monks in overall.

On the other hand, Monks specialize in what? They don't have any active role other than fighting in melee and they are descent at best in that area. Fast movement it not that much significant when spell casters can move themselves or other melee combatant via spells. Survivability against spells and special effects? Can't be significant when monks are relatively vulnerable against something without saves (including melee attacks).

Don't forget Diplomacy skill focus/face of the party, especially with the Epic campaign rules for the skill (now they have fanatics!!!).

 

[IamIan]

I can't get it. If a Monk can buy Belt of Giant Strength +6, a Fighter can.

.... the grapple fighter will have +3 Better Grapple but do d4+9 instead of d10+9. and the fighter has to get closer first. If the fighter is not going for grapple but instead out of the 49,000 GP of the example buys +1 or +2 weapons and armor he will have a better to hit and better AC but will not be as good of a grappler as he could have been.... I also already said that the Barbarian actually makes the better Grappler with higher Str from Rage and equal to fighter base attack.

For the money a fighter spends on weapon and armor, a monk usually buy a lot of defensive/ability score enhancing items such as Ring of Protection, Amulet of Health (a very hard choice against periapt of wisdom), Bracers of Armor, Gloves of Dexterity and such. Even with all those items, a monk tend to have lower AC then fighter types. In my experience, when both have the same amount of money, that is a Monk who can afford better Belt of Strength Later.

.... low level either die from slipping on wet floor...
Mid Level Fighter has slight edge...
By Lv 20 Monk passes up Fighter in AC and damage per round and has equal base attack.
By Lv 20 Monk has ~20 less HP than fighter but heals self 40 HP / Day
by Lv 20 Monk has crazy Speed and better saves.

No feat needed. Just ready an attack. Now both combatants attack once/turn. If both sides attack once/turn, a monk loses because he has lower attack bonus, lower AC, and lower damages. Spring attack build is a really bad idea when someone does not hit hard on each blow.

Spring Attack is ment to complicate what the proper choice would be ... you ready for the spring Monk hits you with shirikin .... Plus this is still in the mid levels where I have already said fighters have an edge.

If you are still thinking so, It seems obvious that you have never met a player who try to use a cleric as an active adventurer. Yes clerics are the best healer. But healing is not the only specialization of them.

I have seen this... and I disagree... I know what the class can do... I just disagree... I put different value on different things.... for me Monks are way strong as a class...

And for me Clerics are forced multi-taskers and jack of all trades.

my 2 bits