Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[Rystil Arden]

You lost me. I can see this for a PC with Teleport or Dimension Door, but most 20th level PCs that weren't also major spellcasters that I've seen are lacking these abilities. Are you assuming a continual freedom of movement, or something else?

At 20th level, if you don't have a Ring of Freedom of Movement, you were probably already dead.

 

[Storm Raven]

now please excuse the crudity of a few minute character... but ....

Fine... first the power of the monk as i have tried to say is not that he always beats everyone at everything but that a monk can multi-task well or can specialize in several ways to beat other classes... the class gives far more options to specialize or mutli-task....

Now if we are going Monk vs Fighter... a Specialized Monk will do better than a Multi-Tasker...

Also So one of the Monk's Best Specialties is Grapple and it is good against most classes... exception being Barbarian Grappler...

AC Specialist monk is a different Build.

Grapple is d20 + Bonus & the Bonus is = Str + Base Attack + Size Modifier
All Core Races are Medium Size
1/2 Orc Gives +2Str but -2 Int -2 Cha so I choose 1/2 Orc from Core Races.
Best Attribute should be Str 18 16 Points
How About Dex 13 5 Points
How about Wis 10 1 Points
How about Con 10 1 Points
Char 9 , Int 9 0 Points
brings me to 23 Points just over Challenging by DM Book
Racial comes in
Str 20 Dex 13 Con 10 Wis 10 Cha 7 Int 7
10 Character Levels
Str 22 Dex 13 Con 10 Wis 10 Cha 7 Int 7
If you want 49,000 GP
+6 Str Giant Belt 36,000
Brings Str up to 28 and leave 13,000 GP
Boots of Speed 12,000 Leaves 1,000 GP .... and gives Haste 10 Round / Day
250 GP for Potion of Enlarge leaves 750 GP
Lv 10 Monk will have
Base Attack +7 / +2
Base Save +7 on all
+2 Monk to AC
+30 Speed so up to 60 With +30 Haste = Speed 90 up to x4 = 360 feet per round
d10 for unarmed damage +9 Str so d10+9 Damage
Base Flurry of blows +7 / +7 / +2
Heal 20 HP / Day Wholeness of Body Su
Bonus Feat Improved Grapple
Bonus Feat Deflect Arrows
Bonus Feat Improved Trip
Lv1 Feat Dodge
Lv3 Feat Mobility
Lv6 Improved Initative
Lv9 Spring Attack
HP ~50
AC base 10 + 1Dex + 2 Monk = 13
Str 28 Gives +9 to Melee and Grapple
Melee +16 / +11 or Flurry of Blows +16 / +16 / +11
Grapple +7 + 9 + 4 = +20 Grapple Another +4 Size if Enlarged as per Potion = +24 Grapple

I would put this monk up against a lv 10 Fighter any day

And this monks goes in and Grapples The Fighter making Armor / Shield Useless... unless Fighter can break Grapple He isn't doing anything other than getting hurt...

At a Speed of 90 The Monk could also easily use Spring Attack and Stay 45 feet or more form the fighter while attacking and not provioking attacks of opertunity.... but Graple is better

Your monk has a crappy AC for a 10th level character, and lousy hit points - 45 on average. A typical 10th level fighter would eat him for lunch and then some. Heck, even a non-archery specialized fighter might be able to make a pincusion out of him with that low of an AC and minimal hit points. All the fighter has to do to negate most of your stuff (spring attack, grapple and so on), is make sure to ready an action to attack you when you run up to him.

The fighter has a BAB of +10, his Strength is probably 24 or so (start with 16, two level bonuses, add a +6 Strength item), so his attack routine would be +17/+12 without considering magic weapons or feats. Using a greatsword, he deals out 2d6+10 points of damage. Give him, say, a +2 flaming greatsword and he bumps up to 2d6+12+1d6 (22.5 average) per hit. With one readied action, he, in all probability, cuts your hits points in half with a single stroke.

And since he went with a more reasonable build and took 14 Con, he has, on average 75 hit points. Now, do you really want to grapple the 75 hit point guy with your 22.5 hit points remaining monk and hope you can keep him occupied long enough to avoid him getting just one more hit on you? God forbid he pumps up his initial hit with Power Attack or gets lucky and scores a critical hit with his greatsword, you might very well die on his first attack.

In the end, "mano-a-mano" comparisons are silly though, because D&D is a team game. In most combats, while the monk is busy trying to grapple the fighter, his buddy the cleric or rogue will be busy trying to stab the now AC 10 monk to death. Given the monk's low hit point total, he has no business being anywhere near melee.

 

[Thanee]

The fighter could have boots of levitation... and a bow.
Or Improved Grapple and 26 Str and 10 BAB for +22 Grapple check.
Or Improved Initiative and Power Attack, killing you in a single round... easily.
Or Close-Quarters Fighting and Combat Reflexes.

And that's all spending just a *fraction* of the fighter's resources.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zimbel]

Ok attempting to pull this out of this particular rut..


I notice several votes for Barbarian, and I find that interesting. I've never cared for the Barbarian conceptually I admit, it seems to me that "barbarian" is a cultural concept not a class, and even the Berserker seems like it could be handled by feats for Fighters and Rangers. I also admit that I am not up on every detail of the class for that reason.

However, it does seem to me that the Barbarian may be a little over the top as compared to the other melees. Especially the Fighter. It seems to me that comparing Barb and Fighter, Fighters get a better AC, and bonus feats. Barbarians have the same BAB, and more HPs, fast movement, Rage, a little DR and now also an ability that somewhat mitagates the classic martial class weakness of poor Will saves.

Other opinions?

I agree that they're a bit stronger than the fighter, unless you do enough combats in a day that the number of rages/day becomes relevant (pretty often at low levels, pretty rare at high). I'm not really seeing that versus a (lucky/smart) Ranger or Paladin, particuarly at mid/high levels.

 

[Zimbel]

At 20th level, if you don't have a Ring of Freedom of Movement, you were probably already dead.

Interesting. We just had a Cleric who prepared a few/day, but rarely used them.

 

[Thanee]

Other opinions?

They are pretty close, really. Barbarians are HUGE at low-levels, but later the fighter keeps up with Greater Weapon Specialization and tons of other feats, which tend to be fairly useful in combat.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

You lost me.

Grapple is a very potent attack form against many characters, so by 20th level you should have a working defense against it, which could be Dimension Door or huge amounts of Escape Artist or a ring of freedom of movement or Close-Quarters Fighting or simply a huge Grapple check yourself.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Merlion]

I agree that they're a bit stronger than the fighter, unless you do enough combats in a day that the number of rages/day becomes relevant (pretty often at low levels, pretty rare at high). I'm not really seeing that versus a (lucky/smart) Ranger or Paladin, particuarly at mid/high levels.

Well I would agree with Paladin against most evil enemies. I think part of my thing is the Barbarians abilities...Rage, DR etc...are very generally useful. In particular Rage is an offensive ability on a melee class that works against more or less everything as oposed to Smite Evil or Favored Enemy which are very specific.

Plus the HPs. And again the only loss I can see is that the Barb's AC is going to be a bit low..

 

[Thanee]

...and they have like 11 fewer feats over 20 levels...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rystil Arden]

Grapple is a very potent attack form against many characters, so by 20th level you should have a working defense against it, which could be Dimension Door or huge amounts of Escape Artist or a ring of freedom of movement or Close-Quarters Fighting or simply a huge Grapple check yourself.

Bye
Thanee

The problem is that Escape Artist and Grapple checks usually cannot keep up with the grapple checks of things you might be fighting, so really Ring of Freedom of movement or an escape spell (like Dimension Door) is a must.