Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[Rystil Arden]

My questions to you are: have you played any high-level monks? Have you seen one in play with at least 1 other PC?

I've seen quite a few high level monks. Most of them were not very strong at all, and I find it amusing that IamIan needs to invent an item that no GM would ever allow to make his monk viable.

However, one player had a Monk/Shou Disciple/Ninja of the Crescent Moon that was insane, since he had nearly full BAB, and Greater Flurry with Martial Weapons, plus Sneak Attack and TWF.

 

[IamIan]

It's time to put yer money where your mouth is, IamIan.

now please excuse the crudity of a few minute character... but ....

Fine... first the power of the monk as i have tried to say is not that he always beats everyone at everything but that a monk can multi-task well or can specialize in several ways to beat other classes... the class gives far more options to specialize or mutli-task....

Now if we are going Monk vs Fighter... a Specialized Monk will do better than a Multi-Tasker...

Also So one of the Monk's Best Specialties is Grapple and it is good against most classes... exception being Barbarian Grappler...

AC Specialist monk is a different Build.

Grapple is d20 + Bonus & the Bonus is = Str + Base Attack + Size Modifier
All Core Races are Medium Size
1/2 Orc Gives +2Str but -2 Int -2 Cha so I choose 1/2 Orc from Core Races.
Best Attribute should be Str 18 16 Points
How About Dex 13 5 Points
How about Wis 10 1 Points
How about Con 10 1 Points
Char 9 , Int 9 0 Points
brings me to 23 Points just over Challenging by DM Book
Racial comes in
Str 20 Dex 13 Con 10 Wis 10 Cha 7 Int 7
10 Character Levels
Str 22 Dex 13 Con 10 Wis 10 Cha 7 Int 7
If you want 49,000 GP
+6 Str Giant Belt 36,000
Brings Str up to 28 and leave 13,000 GP
Boots of Speed 12,000 Leaves 1,000 GP .... and gives Haste 10 Round / Day
250 GP for Potion of Enlarge leaves 750 GP
Lv 10 Monk will have
Base Attack +7 / +2
Base Save +7 on all
+2 Monk to AC
+30 Speed so up to 60 With +30 Haste = Speed 90 up to x4 = 360 feet per round
d10 for unarmed damage +9 Str so d10+9 Damage
Base Flurry of blows +7 / +7 / +2
Heal 20 HP / Day Wholeness of Body Su
Bonus Feat Improved Grapple
Bonus Feat Deflect Arrows
Bonus Feat Improved Trip
Lv1 Feat Dodge
Lv3 Feat Mobility
Lv6 Improved Initative
Lv9 Spring Attack
HP ~50
AC base 10 + 1Dex + 2 Monk = 13
Str 28 Gives +9 to Melee and Grapple
Melee +16 / +11 or Flurry of Blows +16 / +16 / +11
Grapple +7 + 9 + 4 = +20 Grapple Another +4 Size if Enlarged as per Potion = +24 Grapple

I would put this monk up against a lv 10 Fighter any day

And this monks goes in and Grapples The Fighter making Armor / Shield Useless... unless Fighter can break Grapple He isn't doing anything other than getting hurt...

At a Speed of 90 The Monk could also easily use Spring Attack and Stay 45 feet or more form the fighter while attacking and not provioking attacks of opertunity.... but Graple is better

 

[Rystil Arden]

That is a good grappler build for a monk. The problem is that the Fighter will either have a Grapple check of 1 lower (Monk has Improved Grapple, Fighter has 3 more BAB) or 3 more (if both take Improved Grapple, and many fighters do), so keeping him grappled won't be easy.

Edit: And the Cleric grins and casts Freedom of Movement.

 

[IamIan]

That is a good grappler build for a monk. The problem is that the Fighter will either have a Grapple check of 1 lower (Monk has Improved Grapple, Fighter has 3 more BAB) or 3 more (if both take Improved Grapple, and many fighters do), so keeping him grappled won't be easy.

Edit: And the Cleric grins and casts Freedom of Movement.

so now the cleric and fighter are takign on the lone monk???

also the spring attacking monk on the same build will prevent the fighter from getting any hits.

 

[Merlion]

That is a good grappler build for a monk. The problem is that the Fighter will either have a Grapple check of 1 lower (Monk has Improved Grapple, Fighter has 3 more BAB) or 3 more (if both take Improved Grapple, and many fighters do), so keeping him grappled won't be easy.

Edit: And the Cleric grins and casts Freedom of Movement.

Quoted for accuracy and succintness. I couldnt have said it better myself Mr. Glowing Green Eye Thingy.

 

[Thanee]

Grapple does nothing at all at 20th level, unless you have an Antimagic Field handy.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rystil Arden]

so now the cleric and fighter are takign on the lone monk???

also the spring attacking monk on the same build will prevent the fighter from getting any hits.

No...this is just showing what a cleric would do if you fought him instead of fighting the fighter (I noticed you had a few arguments above where you say that a monk would just grapple the cleric and then it would be over).

If you use that Spring Attack strategy, the Fighter shrugs, laughs, and makes a full attack with his bow

 

[Zimbel]

now please excuse the crudity of a few minute character... but ....
Grapple is d20 + Bonus & the Bonus is = Str + Base Attack + Size Modifier
All Core Races are Medium Size
1/2 Orc Gives +2Str but -2 Int -2 Cha so I choose 1/2 Orc from Core Races.
Best Attribute should be Str 18 16 Points
How About Dex 13 5 Points
How about Wis 10 1 Points
How about Con 10 1 Points
Char 9 , Int 9 0 Points
brings me to 23 Points just over Challenging by DM Book
Racial comes in
Str 20 Dex 13 Con 10 Wis 10 Cha 7 Int 7
10 Character Levels
Str 22 Dex 13 Con 10 Wis 10 Cha 7 Int 7
If you want 49,000 GP
+6 Str Giant Belt 36,000
Brings Str up to 28 and leave 13,000 GP
Boots of Speed 12,000 Leaves 1,000 GP .... and gives Haste 10 Round / Day
250 GP for Potion of Enlarge leaves 750 GP
Lv 10 Monk will have
Base Attack +7 / +2
Base Save +7 on all
+2 Monk to AC
+30 Speed so up to 60 With +30 Haste = Speed 90 up to x4 = 360 feet per round
d10 for unarmed damage +9 Str so d10+9 Damage
Base Flurry of blows +7 / +7 / +2
Heal 20 HP / Day Wholeness of Body Su
Bonus Feat Improved Grapple
Bonus Feat Deflect Arrows
Bonus Feat Improved Trip
Lv1 Feat Dodge
Lv3 Feat Mobility
Lv6 Improved Initative
Lv9 Spring Attack
HP ~50
AC base 10 + 1Dex + 2 Monk = 13
Str 28 Gives +9 to Melee and Grapple
Melee +16 / +11 or Flurry of Blows +16 / +16 / +11
Grapple +7 + 9 + 4 = +20 Grapple Another +4 Size if Enlarged as per Potion = +24 Grapple

I would put this monk up against a lv 10 Fighter any day

And this monks goes in and Grapples The Fighter making Armor / Shield Useless... unless Fighter can break Grapple He isn't doing anything other than getting hurt...

At a Speed of 90 The Monk could also easily use Spring Attack and Stay 45 feet or more form the fighter while attacking and not provioking attacks of opertunity.... but Graple is better

Rather good for a core build.

Personally, I'd take Stunning Fist as the LV 1 bonus feat, and take Improved Grapple instead of Imp. Init. Your opponent may only need a 2 to make the save, but it's nice when it works, and you get it a bunch of times a day.

Yeah, the Monk needs a higher speed to really to do a consistant Spring Attack effectively - many Fighters could just respond with a charge with no problem.

My opinion is that it could do pretty well against most bow, 2-handed or sword & shield fighters. I think it would even be competative with most 2-weapon fighters (since they'd spend more on their weapons & armor, and less on Str).

 

[Merlion]

Ok attempting to pull this out of this particular rut..


I notice several votes for Barbarian, and I find that interesting. I've never cared for the Barbarian conceptually I admit, it seems to me that "barbarian" is a cultural concept not a class, and even the Berserker seems like it could be handled by feats for Fighters and Rangers. I also admit that I am not up on every detail of the class for that reason.

However, it does seem to me that the Barbarian may be a little over the top as compared to the other melees. Especially the Fighter. It seems to me that comparing Barb and Fighter, Fighters get a better AC, and bonus feats. Barbarians have the same BAB, and more HPs, fast movement, Rage, a little DR and now also an ability that somewhat mitagates the classic martial class weakness of poor Will saves.

Other opinions?

 

[Zimbel]

Grapple ineffective?

Grapple does nothing at all at 20th level, unless you have an Antimagic Field handy.

Bye
Thanee

You lost me. I can see this for a PC with Teleport or Dimension Door, but most 20th level PCs that weren't also major spellcasters that I've seen are lacking these abilities. Are you assuming a continual freedom of movement, or something else?