Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-Underpowered

[IamIan]

Except that you definitively haven't shown that. The example fighter would wipe the floor with your monkl at all levels.

Wasn't going to post it here .. but sinse you make it an issue here....

My first post about the monk on the too-powerful thread.

by the end A fighter in armor vs a Monk not in armor

Monk
Dex 18+2Race+5Lvs+5Book+6Item = 36 for +13 to AC
Wis 17+5Book+6Item = 28 for +9 to AC
Class bonus +4 AC

Compared to fighter
Mitheral +5 Full Plate 13 Armor max of +3 Dex
Mitheral +5 Tower Shield +9 Armor max dex +4

That’s it all other stuff can pretty much both classes can get and use… both can use ring of
protection or natural armor ect….

So fighter has base10+13Armor+9Shield+3Dex = 35
So monk has base10+13Dex+9Wis+4AC = 36

The monk starts the same as low level fighter who can’t afford much armor
Mid level the fighter pulls ahead a little
By the end the Monk passes the fighter’s AC still without the weight or skill penalty.

Base attack…
Fighter is +3 better by Lv 11 and +5 better by Lv 20
Ahhh
But you forget young one … any class can get the fighter’s base attack
Transformation Spell Lv6 Times Caster Lv12 Times 2,000 = 144,000
So for 12 Rounds 5 times per day anybody can have fighter’s base attack

as it turns out divine power magic item would be even cheaper and do the same for the monk....

and this item as expensive as it is ... is not expensive at all for a Lv 20 Monk...

As I have been saying from the begining....
Both weak low level....
Fighter better at mid level....
Monk Better at the end....

If you are talking about AC... Armor maxes out at Full Plate +5 .... Shield Maxes out at Tower +5 and those are the two things a monk can't get that the fighter can.... +8+5+4+5 = +22 From Items +3 For Mitheral Full Plate +5 brings it up to +25 assumeing fighter dex 16

of course as already stated they both get 10 base and both can still also get protection rings and miss chance rings... but this is the AC difference that the fighter gets that the monk doesn't / Can't....

The monk is not restricked at his maxes as much as the fighter is.... becuase the Monk can use More Attributes for AC and Becuase it doesn't cap out to a limited amount they can potentially pull ahead of the fighter by the time they can aford to pump into both attributes...

16 and 15 for Dex and Wis Elf Gets +2 to Dex = 18, 15 +5 from 20 Lvs = 23 , 15 +5 From Dex Book and +5 from Wis Book = 28 , 20 +6 Dex and +6 Wisdom Items = 34 , 26 for and AC bonus of +12 , +8 and the monks +4 from the Class = 24 ..... not very high attributes to start with and the monk is 1 point bellow the Best can do with armor and shields... Monk Builds from other races and such can pass up the armor and shield's AC.... and this AC is FAR better than the Armor & Shield type AC becuase it is all... you can't touch this AC.... Touch attacks close or ranged don't negate the bonuses as they do with armor and Shield....

as I have said...
beginig both suck
Mid level fighter better becuase it is cheaper to pump one thing such as armor...
high level the monk pulls ahead... better type of AC for the same kind and with the right build pass up the fighter in AC... and is allot faster and doesn't have the other negatives of armor.

Another Byproduct of the monk being able to use 2 Attributes for AC is that it makes more sense for him to pump both Attributes... this gives the AC above ... but it also stacks with his good saves in all.... a Wis 26 and Dex 34 give a Lv 20 Monk killer Reflex and Will Saves Plus his class bonuses to sertain saves... or switch the attributes and it is more will than reflex but still with good saves in all...

also

This means that while a Lv20 Monk Probably does have a +6 Str Belt and maybe the +5 Str Book he also can use Weapon Finese for Dex to Unarmed attacks... which means from the Magic Item of Transformation or the Magic Item of divine power the monk has the same +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 Base Attack of the Fighter... He can still use his best attribute to hit with as the fighter uses Str the Monk can use dex .... and the Monk will be doing more damage per round thanks to flurry of blows giving him +20 / +20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 .... and yes the fighter with haste can get +20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 the Monk with Haste can get +20 / +20 /+20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5... as stated before Fighter with Str focus and +4 Damage from Feats and posibly 2 handed weapon will do more damage per hit... but the monk gets 2 more hits per round and by Lv 20 they are easily made to be just as accurate as the fighter's to Hit for the first Blow but then the Fighter drops to +15 for second attack the Monk is still at +20 and more likely to hit.... by the 3rd blow the Fighter is down to +10 the Monk still at +20 and much more likely to hit.... by the fourth blow the fighter has his last at +5 the monk drops to +15 and still has 2 more to go...

Also Remember the Skills that the Monk Can Benefit from a Dex and Wis that High.... and they are class skills too...

That's why you are having a hard time convincing anyone you are right - the facts presented simply don't back up your opinions. The things that you seem to think "allow the monk to get ahead" are just as available to the fighter, and they have an array of other, often more valuable items that they can get for less expense. When you are forced to get down to concrete examples, your opinions simply don't hold up - they are not backed by any substance.

The above I have been saying from the begining and the numbers do add up... the fighter can't get better Armor or Shields at Lv 20 they are maxed out.... the Pumping of 2 Attributes catches up to the Armor and Shields in raw number... but passes it in value as touch attacks and such... plus the Skills .. Plus the Saves... plus speed... etc.... etc...

by the way +2 Dex can be had with far less sacrifice than the +2 Str... which means the Dex to weapon finese has a great chance of getting higher than the Str to Attack does by high levels... again not at low levels ... or mid levels...

And his low AC and lousy hit points make him useless. He's not even that good at grappling, unless he uses a temporary one shot item (the potion of enlarge person) he's no better at grappling than the example fighter, and for the example fighter grappling was his third best method of combat. How "overpowered' are you when your best mode of combat is no better than a straight fighter's third best?

Another example of what I had said being taken out of context... the fighter build if done with magic Armor Shields and weapons as said would be... can not get the same str as the monk example and would have even with +3 Base Attack and same feat to grapple would have been about equal in grappling bonus and would have been doing d4+6 Damage in grapple while the monk did d10+9 and the monk has a natural healing at that level the fighter doesn't... and as said before ... I said the fighter pulls ahead in the mid levels... as for other suck Attributes... if the fighter wants the same 18 STR in that point build his other attributes will be the same as the monks... and if the fighter doesn't have the same 18 STR to Start then the Monk gets even better at grappling him and does proportionally even more damage.

low level both suck die just as easy...
mid level fighter pulls ahead a little... better AC and +3 to hit...
by the end the monk cathes or passes the Fighter in raw AC but has a better type of AC and Catches the Fighter in to hit but passes in number of attacks and damage per round thanks to the greater number of attacks... etc...etc...

Allowing such a magic item would be a house rule, such is clearly stated in the DMG. This is not the house rules forum, which makes it irrelevant to the dicussion. The magic item creation guidelines also say that certain items simply are not priced appropriately using the pricing guidelines - items of true strike are the most obvious example. A continuous antimagic item would be another.

True... The True Strking Bow for Instance in 3.0 Fighter's and monks book gave a +20 Insight Bonus to hit with the arrows fired from the bow and cost a crazy low amount of money less than 5,000 if i remember correctly ... Wish Spell Rings and Rings of Sustenance Cost Far less than the Formulas...

And failed miserably. Until you can show an actual example of an overpowered monk, your opinion has nothing to back it up other than your repeated claims, all of which have been countered with actual, concrete examples. If you want people to listen to your opion, you should actually back it up with something. As of yet, you haven't. It isn't that we dislike the fact that you have a different opinion, it is that your opinion is so clearly counter to the facts that have been shown thus far. Give examples - actual, concrete examples of what you are talking about and people might listen to you.

I have given examples... they are then taken out of context and used another way.... and as I have said from the begining one the the things about the monk is that he can specialize in many things... The cleric I feal is weaker becuase it forces multi-tasking and what a Cleric is.

To arguements people have made are that there is nothing wrong with playing a cleric any way you want with no reguard to what a cleric is and that multi-tasking and being multi-use is better than specializing... I have said from the begining that multi-taksing can be useful... but it give versatility at the expense of focus... other say the loss of focus is worth far less than what you gian in multi-tasking... that is the point I disagree with ... that and what a cleric is and how people play it.

 

[Merlion]

Ok we seem to have a pretty good concensus going on here as to which classes are a little under par.


Fighters and Monks both seem to have a little trouble keeping up with the other Martial classes.


Sorcerers seem to have the same problem as spellcasters, along with issues of being a little bit to much like the Wizard.

The Bard I'm not sure about. It has the most votes, but I think that is because a lot of people feel support=weak which isnt really the case, its just a different role. However, I do tend to think it'd be nice for the Bard to be able to have a little more offense without quite as much effort and without needing as much non-core stuff.



So I am curious to know what people think would be good fixes for these problems.


As for Fighter, in one game I ran I gave Fighters a scaling competence bonus to attack and damage rolls, and a seperate one to AC. I also used the Class Defense Bonus and Armor as Damage Reduction variants from Unearthed Arcana, which to me seem to help out melee classes a lot.


For Monk its hard to say. Lately I've been thinking Monks should maybe just have full BAB and be done with it...they are a martial class, physical combat is really their only way to take part in combat. Also I am begining to think some of the movement and attacking rules are a little too restrictive. I've heard the Monk called a hit and run warrior, but in D&D doing hit and run is kind of hard.


For the Sorcerer theres a lot of options. My preference would be to take the bloodline idea and use it. Have several to pick from, with different spell lists and a series of small but useful themed class abilities. This address both the slight mechanical weakness and makes them more distinct from the Wizard.


Bard is a hard one since like I said I think its balanced as a support character, it just lacks offense. I think some more sound and mental based attack spells wouldnt hurt. Perhaps some good self buffs for combat. I think more and more varied Bardic Music, and the option to choose different ones at different levels instead of a totally set pattern might be a good one. Maybe an increased hit die.



Thoughts?

 

[Rystil Arden]

The Bard I'm not sure about. It has the most votes, but I think that is because a lot of people feel support=weak which isnt really the case, its just a different role. However, I do tend to think it'd be nice for the Bard to be able to have a little more offense without quite as much effort and without needing as much non-core stuff.

Not just offense--the Bard is defensively lacking compared to other characters that can play support such as the Cleric and Druid as well as being inferior at the job of support to the Cleric and often the Druid. Truly a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard party could get more useful support out of adding a Druid than a Bard, and of course any party without a Cleric could get more useful support adding a Cleric than a Bard.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Sure, sometimes you can pump your grapple enough to take on big opponents, but it's tough, and a very tactical decision, as I said before. It is still a lousy option for many of the foes a high level party will have, as they have all kinds of nastiness to deal out simply as a result of touching them, but that's a problem monks have in general.

Sure, it's not a good option against a lot of foes that a high level party will have. But it is a good option against a lot of those foes as well. (And can be a good option against even more with a few spells from allies. A resist energy makes grappling the fire elemental very workable and, depending upon your interpretation of the polymorph spell, there are a lot of forms that expand the range of practically grappleable creatures--a stone or fire giant form monk can grapple a lot of things that he couldn't in his natural form and an athach form monk would do even better if your DM lets you get huge forms out of polymorph). There aren't many options that are good against every foe that a high level party will face--that's why one trick ponies do worse and worse the higher level they get.

Most people don't use the "must have rake" rule because it doesn't exist. Check page 156 of the PHB again. And trading a round trying to get a grapple on a foe in exchange for a full round of natural attacks in response is a bad move, and the lesson she learned.

As others have pointed out, the rules are not as clear as you suggest. (I think the monster manual's rake entry makes it pretty clear the other way myself, but that's neither here nor there). In any event, the character isn't giving up a whole lot by spending the round establishing a grapple. A monk does just as much damage with a grapple as with an unarmed strike. And, again, depending upon rules interpretations, a monk might even be able to flurry of blows, get in the bonus unarmed strike and then attempt a grapple (without even taking the attack penalty on his grapple check if you follow the FAQ slavishly) on the second attack. If the monk is successful, even by your interpretation, the creature should take -4 to hit for attacking in a grapple. Since it was going to full attack with its natural weapons anyway, getting full attacked at -4 is a lot better than getting full attacked at full attack bonus. (Not to mention the possibility that the creature might have been more effective with a manufactured weapon that it can no longer use).

From the sounds of things, the situation in your campaign was simply an example of a bad situation not an example of bad tactics.

 

[Merlion]

Not just offense--the Bard is defensively lacking compared to other characters that can play support such as the Cleric and Druid as well as being inferior at the job of support to the Cleric and often the Druid. Truly a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard party could get more useful support out of adding a Druid than a Bard, and of course any party without a Cleric could get more useful support adding a Cleric than a Bard.

Well its certainlly odd to me that the Bard's defensive bardic music ability comes so late in his career. Really I think most Bardic Music abilities should be made modular and let the Bard pic one every so many levels, with a few special ones like Song of Freedom at certain levels.

The Cleric/Bard thing is weird. Clerics arent really very good at offensive support...all their combat "buffs" are self only. But they have very nice defensive spells they can cast on others (Spell resistance, Death Ward, FoM). The Bard has some good buffs, of course they tend to be redundant with Bardic Music. Good Hope and Heroism both overlap with Inspire Courage. Personally, I think Heroism should grant competence bonuses.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well its certainlly odd to me that the Bard's defensive bardic music ability comes so late in his career. Really I think most Bardic Music abilities should be made modular and let the Bard pic one every so many levels, with a few special ones like Song of Freedom at certain levels.

The Cleric/Bard thing is weird. Clerics arent really very good at offensive support...all their combat "buffs" are self only. But they have very nice defensive spells they can cast on others (Spell resistance, Death Ward, FoM). The Bard has some good buffs, of course they tend to be redundant with Bardic Music. Good Hope and Heroism both overlap with Inspire Courage. Personally, I think Heroism should grant competence bonuses.

Don't underestimate the effectiveness of Bless and Prayer

 

[Merlion]

Don't underestimate the effectiveness of Bless and Prayer

I do tend to forget about those, although Inspire Courage eventually eclipses them.

Also, honestly in my own mind I tend not to compare to the Cleric. I consider the Cleric sufficiently overpowered as to no longer be a proper yardstick. But your right, in a standard game its still an issue.

 

[ForceUser]

Ok we seem to have a pretty good concensus going on here as to which classes are a little under par.


Fighters and Monks both seem to have a little trouble keeping up with the other Martial classes.
Thoughts?

We absolutely do not have a consensus on this. I stand by my multiple earlier statements and examples that fighters are better fighters than every other melee class, except barbarians, who are generally on par with them.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you are talking about AC... Armor maxes out at Full Plate +5 .... Shield Maxes out at Tower +5 and those are the two things a monk can't get that the fighter can.... +8+5+4+5 = +22 From Items +3 For Mitheral Full Plate +5 brings it up to +25 assumeing fighter dex 16

of course as already stated they both get 10 base and both can still also get protection rings and miss chance rings... but this is the AC difference that the fighter gets that the monk doesn't / Can't....

The monk is not restricked at his maxes as much as the fighter is.... becuase the Monk can use More Attributes for AC and Becuase it doesn't cap out to a limited amount they can potentially pull ahead of the fighter by the time they can aford to pump into both attributes...

16 and 15 for Dex and Wis Elf Gets +2 to Dex = 18, 15 +5 from 20 Lvs = 23 , 15 +5 From Dex Book and +5 from Wis Book = 28 , 20 +6 Dex and +6 Wisdom Items = 34 , 26 for and AC bonus of +12 , +8 and the monks +4 from the Class = 24 ..... not very high attributes to start with and the monk is 1 point bellow the Best can do with armor and shields... Monk Builds from other races and such can pass up the armor and shield's AC.... and this AC is FAR better than the Armor & Shield type AC becuase it is all... you can't touch this AC.... Touch attacks close or ranged don't negate the bonuses as they do with armor and Shield....

You yourself have illustrated that the Monk has a lower AC in a best versus best contest. Let's look at the rest of your error.


You gave the Fighter:

+5 Mithral Full Plate (35650 GP)
+5 Tower Shield (25180 GP)


You gave the Monk:

Race Elf
+5 Manual of Quickness of Action (137,000 GP)
+6 Gloves of Dexterity (36,000 GP)
+5 Tome of Understanding (137,000 GP)
+6 Periapt of Wisdom (36,000 GP)


You spent 60,830 GP on the Fighter and 346,000 GP on the Monk (nearly half of his 20th level wealth on AC). Does that sound equitable to you???

You even gave the Monk an advantageous race. You did not do the same for the Fighter.

Hmmmm.


Let's look at what you forgot to give the Fighter:

Amulet of Natural Armor +5 to get +5 more AC (50,000 GP)

The Monk cannot take an Amulet of Natural Armor unless he gives up his Periapt of Wisdom.


You forgot to give the Monk:

Bracers of Armor +8 (instead of +6 Gauntlets of Dexterity) to get +5 more AC (64,000 GP instead of 36,000 GP)


So, with this more equitable to both sides approach:

Fighter AC 30, 110,830 GP
Monk AC 29, 374,000 GP

The Monk could better his AC by spending even more money and getting the Amulet of Natural Armor and giving up his Periapt of Wisdom:

Fighter AC 30, 110,830 GP
Monk AC 31, 388,000 GP

The Monk spent 3.5 times as much as the Fighter in order to get one higher AC. And note: the Fighter could easily get the 16 Dex with Gloves of Dexterity if his Dex is not high enough.


But, what if the Fighter decides to use HIS advantages like the money he has not spent and his boatload of combat feats?

+5 Manual of Gainful Exercise (137,000 GP) combined with Combat Expertise, +2 to +3 more AC and still 140,000 GP less spent. Even without spending the money on the Manual, a 20th level Fighter has 5 more BAB than a Monk and can lower his BAB by 5 and improve his AC by 5 and STILL be a better combatant type than the Monk (still does more damage, still has more hit points, and has a better AC).

Or even better yet, Improved Combat Expertise.

Granted, the Monk could do this as well, but he is already using up money like crazy and feats like Weapon Finesse and Improved Grapple to become the uber grapple Monk. If you keep trying to keep him up with the Fighter AC-wise, he will suffer in other ways.


The math does not lie. You are mistaken here, even at 20th level.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I do tend to forget about those, although Inspire Courage eventually eclipses them.

Also, honestly in my own mind I tend not to compare to the Cleric. I consider the Cleric sufficiently overpowered as to no longer be a proper yardstick. But your right, in a standard game its still an issue.

It does eventually, but by the time Inspire Courage is significantly more useful, the cleric has gained even more of a lead on the poor Bard anyways.