IamIan said:
as it turns out divine power magic item would be even cheaper and do the same for the monk....
and this item as expensive as it is ... is not expensive at all for a Lv 20 Monk...
And allowing it would be a
house rule. Which makes it irrelevant. Every argument you make that hinges on this sort of item is
entirely irrelevant. And does nothing to help your case other than to show you don't know what you are talking about.
As I have been saying from the begining....
Both weak low level....
Fighter better at mid level....
Monk Better at the end....
1. Wrong. The fighter is quite capable with respect the level appropriate challenges at low level.
2. True, but it's true all of the time.
3. Wrong, the monk is still weaker as a party member and on his own at high level.
If you are talking about AC... Armor maxes out at Full Plate +5 .... Shield Maxes out at Tower +5 and those are the two things a monk can't get that the fighter can.... +8+5+4+5 = +22 From Items +3 For Mitheral Full Plate +5 brings it up to +25 assumeing fighter dex 16
of course as already stated they both get 10 base and both can still also get protection rings and miss chance rings... but this is the AC difference that the fighter gets that the monk doesn't / Can't....
The monk is not restricked at his maxes as much as the fighter is.... becuase the Monk can use More Attributes for AC and Becuase it doesn't cap out to a limited amount they can potentially pull ahead of the fighter by the time they can aford to pump into both attributes...
Which makes the monk
more dependant upon high stats than the fighter. Assuming an equal initial point buy, being more dependent upon multiple stats is
not an advantage. The monk is simply not going to be able to overcome the advantage of armor by pumping up his Wisdom and Dexterity - it costs too much to do so, and since attribute enhancing ityems cap out at +6, he gets, at most a +6 bonus by getting
+6 gloves of dexterity and a
+6 periapt of wisdom. Note also, that
one of those two items costs more than a suit of +5 full plate. Look at the comparison:
1.
+6 periapt of wisdom +
+6 gloves of dexterity = +6 AC for a cost of 72,000 gp
or
2.
+5 mithral full plate +
+5 heavy steel shield = +20 AC for a cost of 60,820 gp
And now the monk has to invest in things like
bracers of armor, and maybe he could pop for some attribute enhancing books, but on the whole, he still starts well in the hole on the AC front.
And to boot, using the necklace slot for a
periapt of wisdom precludes other, valuable things. Things like an
amulet of mighty fists, or an
amulet of natural armor, or an
amulet of health. For the difference in cost between the monk's
periapt and
gloves and the fighter's armor and shield, the fighter could afford a
+2 amulet of natural armor, giving him an additional +2 AC edge, or a
+2 amulet of health, giving him an additional 20 hit points.
Once again, your claims don't match the numbers when you actually work through the math.
16 and 15 for Dex and Wis Elf Gets +2 to Dex = 18, 15 +5 from 20 Lvs = 23 , 15 +5 From Dex Book and +5 from Wis Book = 28 , 20 +6 Dex and +6 Wisdom Items = 34 , 26 for and AC bonus of +12 , +8 and the monks +4 from the Class = 24 ..... not very high attributes to start with and the monk is 1 point bellow the Best can do with armor and shields... Monk Builds from other races and such can pass up the armor and shield's AC.... and this AC is FAR better than the Armor & Shield type AC becuase it is all... you can't touch this AC.... Touch attacks close or ranged don't negate the bonuses as they do with armor and Shield....
First off, not very high attributes? The 16 Dexterity costs 10 points. The 15 Wisdom costs 8 points (if I remember correctly). Using a 24 point buy, that leaves you a
total of 6 points for all of your other attributes. Assuming you use Intelligence and Charisma as dump stats, that gives you a 10 Strength and an 12 Constitution to start with, and drops your Constitution to 10. Your base stat array for your elf monk is Str 10, Int 8, Wis 15, Dex 18, Con 10, Cha 8. Somehow that's just not very impressive.
Second, let's run down these costs, why don't we:
Manual of Quickness of Action - 137,500 gp.
Tome of Understanding - 137,500 gp
+6 Gloves of Dexterity - 36,000 gp
+6 Periapt of Wisdom - 36,000 gp
If he started with an 18 Dexterity and a 15 Wisdom, he now has 34 Dexterity and 26 Wisdom.
Total AC bonus for the monk - 34 AC. Total cost - 347,000 gp.
On the other hand, the fighter, starting with a 12 Dexterity, has:
+5 Mithral Full Plate - 35,650 gp
+5 heavy steel shield - 25,170 gp
Total AC bonus for the fighter - 31 AC. Total cost - 60,820 gp
The fighter comes close to matching the monk's AC bonus for 286,180 gp less. Flat-footed, the fighter's AC is 30, the monk's is 25. The monk's touch AC is admittedly great. But it cost him boatloads of cash to get there.
What could I buy for 286,180 gp? Let's see. I could get a +10 weapon (200,000 + masterwork weapon cost gp), say a
+5 flaming burst greatsword of speed,
and and make that shield a
+5 animated tower shield (bumping up it's cost to 49,180 gp),
and still have money left over for a
+6 amulet of health or a
+4 amulet of natural armor.
as I have said...
beginig both suck
Mid level fighter better becuase it is cheaper to pump one thing such as armor...
high level the monk pulls ahead... better type of AC for the same kind and with the right build pass up the fighter in AC... and is allot faster and doesn't have the other negatives of armor.
Another Byproduct of the monk being able to use 2 Attributes for AC is that it makes more sense for him to pump both Attributes... this gives the AC above ... but it also stacks with his good saves in all.... a Wis 26 and Dex 34 give a Lv 20 Monk killer Reflex and Will Saves Plus his class bonuses to sertain saves... or switch the attributes and it is more will than reflex but still with good saves in all...
Sure, those bump up his saves, but that's not that big of a deal by that point. A
+5 cloak of resistance is well within the range of affordable for most characters, the fighter can also afford to pump up his stats (see below) and so on. The problem for the monk is that he needs to spend piles more money to bump up his AC than the fighter, and the monk's cash supply at 20th level, while large, is not infinite.
also
This means that while a Lv20 Monk Probably does have a +6 Str Belt and maybe the +5 Str Book he also can use Weapon Finese for Dex to Unarmed attacks... which means from the Magic Item of Transformation or the Magic Item of divine power the monk has the same +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 Base Attack of the Fighter...
Now you are wandering into house rule territory. The
divine power item you keep yammering about does not exist. And if it did, it would cost a minimum of 224,000 gp by the guidelines. Given that such an item would provide a type of bonus that no other item does, and is not even listed on the chart, it would probably cost more. And since you are using up item slots, just where do you propose to slot this item? If it is slotless, double the cost to 448,000 gp.
He can still use his best attribute to hit with as the fighter uses Str the Monk can use dex .... and the Monk will be doing more damage per round thanks to flurry of blows giving him +20 / +20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 .... and yes the fighter with haste can get +20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5 the Monk with Haste can get +20 / +20 /+20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5... as stated before Fighter with Str focus and +4 Damage from Feats and posibly 2 handed weapon will do more damage per hit... but the monk gets 2 more hits per round and by Lv 20 they are easily made to be just as accurate as the fighter's to Hit for the first Blow but then the Fighter drops to +15 for second attack the Monk is still at +20 and more likely to hit.... by the 3rd blow the Fighter is down to +10 the Monk still at +20 and much more likely to hit.... by the fourth blow the fighter has his last at +5 the monk drops to +15 and still has 2 more to go...
Once again, your analysis shows a disconnect from reality. Your monk thus far, in addition to the 347,000 gp in items from above, has now spent an additional 137,500 gp for
another +5 book, and 36,000 gp for a
+6 belt of giant strength, which brings his total spent (exclusive of your silly
divine power item) to 520,500 gp, which doesn't exist, and does not apply to anything in this discussion). Now your stat array looks like this:
Str 21, Int 8, Wis 26, Dex 34, Con 10, Cha 8. Assuming you use Weapon Finesse, your attacks are at +27/+27/+27/+22/+17 when flurrying, and your damage is (2d10+5, bludgeoning, 20 x2). Your average damage per hit is 16.5 points.
The fighter (extrapolating from the 10th level fighter presented in the other thread, and giving him equal equipment to your hypothetical monk) has the following stat array:
Str 27, Int 10, Wis 10, Dex 12, Con 20, Cha 8. Using his
+5 flaming burst greatsword of speed, and assuming he has the various weapon focusing feats (logical, given that the 10th level version had them), he attacks at +35/+35/+30/+25/+20, and his damage is (2d6+21 plus 1d6 flaming, slashing, 17-20 x2). His average damage per hit is 31.5 points.
Plus, your monk has an average of 90 hit points. The fighter has an average of 210 hit points.
Also Remember the Skills that the Monk Can Benefit from a Dex and Wis that High.... and they are class skills too...
Except that you sacrificed Intelligence to pump up your Dexterity and Wisdom, so you don't have that many skill points to begin with. As an elf, you don't even get the bonus skill point per level.
The above I have been saying from the begining and the numbers do add up... the fighter can't get better Armor or Shields at Lv 20 they are maxed out.... the Pumping of 2 Attributes catches up to the Armor and Shields in raw number... but passes it in value as touch attacks and such... plus the Skills .. Plus the Saves... plus speed... etc.... etc...
At enormously greater cost. With the extra money, the fighter can pump his Ac up more with other items. You've spent almost all of your cash on AC and a little bit of strength, and you suffer for it. You still haven't figured out that being dependent upon a bunch of attributes is a
weakness not a strength.
by the way +2 Dex can be had with far less sacrifice than the +2 Str... which means the Dex to weapon finese has a great chance of getting higher than the Str to Attack does by high levels... again not at low levels ... or mid levels...
Sure, you can hit, but your damage is pretty lousy. And you are
still behind the comparably equipped fighter in your ability to hit to begin with.
Another example of what I had said being taken out of context... the fighter build if done with magic Armor Shields and weapons as said would be... can not get the same str as the monk example and would have even with +3 Base Attack and same feat to grapple would have been about equal in grappling bonus and would have been doing d4+6 Damage in grapple while the monk did d10+9 and the monk has a natural healing at that level the fighter doesn't... and as said before ... I said the fighter pulls ahead in the mid levels... as for other suck Attributes... if the fighter wants the same 18 STR in that point build his other attributes will be the same as the monks... and if the fighter doesn't have the same 18 STR to Start then the Monk gets even better at grappling him and does proportionally even more damage.
Except that the concrete analysis simply doesn't bear you out. One primary problem here is that the fighter in the example
did match your grappling monk in his grappling ability and it was his third best combat mode. Given that the monk had half the hit points of the monk, trading 1d4+6 (average 8.5) for 1d10+9 (average 14.5) actually works out to the fighter's advantage. And that assumes that the fighter is unable to damage the monk before he is grappled (with a readied action, or ranged attacks, and so on). If he gets just one hit on the monk with his sword before grappling begins, the fighter kills the monk in a hurry, probably a round or two at most.
And now we see you shift. The Dexterity monk no longer fits your example, so you dodge back to the grappling monk. At 20th level, the grappling monk is toast due to his relatively low AC and hit points. You can't have it both ways - pick one example 'uber' monk and show that he is better.
low level both suck die just as easy...
mid level fighter pulls ahead a little... better AC and +3 to hit...
by the end the monk cathes or passes the Fighter in raw AC but has a better type of AC and Catches the Fighter in to hit but passes in number of attacks and damage per round thanks to the greater number of attacks... etc...etc...
Actually, the monk doesn't pass him in AC, since the fighter has boatloads of extra cash that the monk had to spend on ability enhancing items he can spend it on
other AC enhancing items. And the monk never ctaches up in "to hit" (since the
divine power item you rely on does not exist, and would be an epic level item based on cost if it did). Also, since your example monk has pretty weak damage output per hit, he needs to have almost twice as many attacks per round to have a hope of coming even on that score.
I have given examples... they are then taken out of context and used another way.... and as I have said from the begining one the the things about the monk is that he can specialize in many things... The cleric I feal is weaker becuase it forces multi-tasking and what a Cleric is.
And your "specialized" monks have shown that they are actually not quite as good as equal level fighters in their "specialty". That's not really helping your case. Give us an actual, example 20th level monk that you think would be "uber". Don't shift between different specialities, and different builds. Figure out how much wealth he would have to spend on all these items and lay out his expenses, don't just say "he could have this" or "he could do that". Put out a concrete version. If the monk is actually uber, as you say, this should not be hard to do. And show how he would dominate a similarly leveled cleric or fighter. Give examples of other classes that show the cleric to be "weak as a kitten".
Until you do, you are just dodging and weaving without any substance.
