Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-Underpowered

[Hypersmurf]

The fighter's chance to kill the monk dramatically increases if he uses a brilliant energy weapon.

Oh, absolutely. And the monk's chance of... well, of hitting the fighter dramatically increases likewise (though as built, he can't afford one).

But given that the fighter only needs to hit the monk five or six times, and the monk needs to hit the fighter... well, at least three times that... it still doesn't look so hot for the monk.

But even without taking brilliant energy into account, the numbers IamIan provided say to me that the monk's best option is to run away as fast as he can.

Which, admittedly, is pretty damned fast for a halfling. Monk's run away better than anyone!

-Hyp.

 

[Sledge]

I find bard is a bit weak, but is fine for the roleplaying centered class it should be.

Sorceror I just give bonus feats like wizards get, but only on request.

 

[Iku Rex]

Now please show me …. How the fighter in armor can get a Better AC using Core Races and Core Classes and Core Magic Items…. Because I don’t see how….. Maybe I am just missing it but I don’t see it….

Please use normal punctuation. ... Your stream-of-consciousness posts .... Are getting on my nerves....


Quick 20th level fighter max AC skeleton build:
(NOT intended as any sort of super melee build any more than IamIan's monk was. Just FYI people.)

10
+1 haste
+1 insight (ioun stone)
+1 small
+5 combat expertise
+5 natural armor
+5 deflection
+10 +5 celestial chainmail
+7 +5 animated shield
+8 dex (celestial chainmail)
+1 dodge
+5 defending weapon
+5 defending weapon
+3 fight defensively w/5 ranks tumble
= 67

Of course, your monk's AC can be improved too, with the same "tricks". And the true AC master will be a spellcaster with access to shapechange. That's all beside the point, since a one-trick pony with a one-battle life expectancy isn't going to prove anything.

Especially since most campaigns never reach 20th level. A class that's only balanced at 20th level isn't balanced at all.

And even if monks can indeed get slightly better AC than fighters with 760000 gps worth of equipment and extreme specialization, that doesn't show that they're not underpowered, and it doesn't prove that their AC won't tend to be lower than a fighter's with equivalent investments in gear.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Freedom of Movement is the counter for Evards.

Unfortunately, nope. FoM is a good defense...if you have it up FIRST. It requires somatic, material, and focus components. Which can't be used/reached (easily) while grappled. Grappled Cleric = Helpless Cleric.

(Until high levels when you can afford an item that provides it...but by that time there's other things to deal with...such as the Teleport ambush).

 

[Testament]

Halfling Lv 20 Monk

Point Buy Character
29 Points 1 over 28 of tougher campaign

9 Con
17 Dex +4 From Lvs +2 Race +5 Book+6 Gloves = 34
9 Str -2 Race = 7 +3 Book +6 Belt = 16
18 Wis +1 From Lvs +5 Book +2 Ioun Stone = 26
9 Int
9 Cha

You're already dead.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Your maxed out Rogue here took 4 combat feats out of the 5 or 6 feats he has at 13th level. Not many feats left over to qualify for a Prestige Class.

You are assuming he hits with his +13/+13/+8/+8. Even with Flank at +2, 13th level opponents with ACs of 26, he will hit about 1/2 of the time with the first two and 1/4 of the time with the last two, or an average of 1.5 sneak attacks per round or 10D6+ extra damage or 37 points of damage more.

That's with an AC of 26 (relatively low for 13th level). How about an AC of 31 opponent? He is suddenly down to 0.5 sneak attack or an extra 12 points of damage on average.

How about the rounds where the Rogue does not get a full round attack because he has to move to a flanking position? How about the rounds where the Rogue cannot get a flanking position?

Yeah my maxed out standard array no magic weapon rogue. Using 4 of 5 or 6 feats for combat, cause he really needs those +2/+2 skill feats with his 8 skill points per level.

Now lets look at CR 13 monsters
Beholder AC 19
celestial charger(unicorn) Ac 24
Ghalee (eladrin) AC 25
Glabrezu (demon) AC 27
Giant, Storm Ac 27
Golem, iron AC 30(immune to sneak attacks)
Hydra 12 headed pryo,cyro AC 22
ice devil (gelugon) AC 32
lich human wizard AC 23(immune to sneak attack)
mummy lord AC 30 (immune to sneak attack)
Slaad, death AC 28

Yeah there just packed with 30+ ac's 26 was a low ac to show as your first exmaple. So when he's facing a few of the really high ac characters and isn't wieding magic weapons he's down to .5 sneak attacks. Now vs the majority of these guys since he will have some kind of magic swords by level 13 he's getting 2+ sneak attacks when in positon. And with tumble he likey can get in positon every round. Add in cripling strike at 10th or 13th level and every sneak attack is also causeing 2 str damage, if lucky in a couple rounds they can drastically weaken a foes melee capabilities. And oportunist gives +1 attack in quite a fee rounds, and definetly every time the rogue is flanking someone with a competent fighter type. Adding in even more sneak attacking and cripling goodness.

Unless your stacking foes against sneak attacking rogues the rogues damage output will vastly out perform the bards buff even at +3/+3. And this is just pure combat effecitveness, the rogue is suppsoed to be mainly a skill monkey and he provides that well, and is also (due to poor design IMO) the only pc capable of finding and removing traps.

 

[Nail]

.... Placing large AOE spells so they don't hit your friends becomes a little tougher. (also note we play where if your AOE spell effects a member of a melee combat, it also affects their opponent 50% of the time. This represents that miniatures are static and not moving where the combatants are actually circling, jabbing, etc. You can take a "precise spell" feat to negate that penalty.)...

You just undermined your ENTIRE arguement here.

You've introduced a house rule that makes AoE spells significantly less powerful. Is it any wonder that the class that relies on them the most (Wiz/Sor) is less powerful than one that does not (Clr)?

.....I see this thing all the time: A poster claims some gross rules imbalance, and only later does it come out that the imbalance is caused by his own house rule. :\

 

[Storm Raven]

I tried to give the basic Idea of the concept... but sense that failed to get my point acros... bellow if a sample of what i am talking about by Lv 20 for AC.

Except your "basic idea of the concept" is flawed.

Allot else you went into multi-taskedness... And you will no doubt see that in my bellow example as well... but as i have said before I find multi-tasking can be useful but has serious limits and prevents you from reaching your best when you deversify.

Exactly how is a single area specialist "uber"? You've claimed that monk's are overpowered, but since it has been conclusively shown that they aren't, your claim now morphs to "they can be really good at a specialty"! And they aren't even the best at it.

I have done this bellow... at least as far as AC goes...

Also As I sdaid from the begining.. the power of the monk is ability to specialize in different ways... and I also said from the begining... that monks are not more powerful than fighters until the end... when they have enough money to take advantage of being able to pump into both attributes.

please see bellow and please show me the error of my ways and how the fighter with the same level and lv 20 money and such hell give him 18's in all attributes if you like... give him twice the cash.... becuase the Fighter's AC has Maxed out by Level 20 useing core Rules , classes and magic items... and it maxed out bellow the monks.

For AC the Monk Bellow is as good as ANY Class Can Get in the core rules, classes and magic items.... at least as far as I see... is he better than every one at every thing... no of course not... no one ever can be... but in his nitch his specialization he can be better than any one else...

And exactly how does being a "specialist in AC" make the monk "uber"? In the case of your example monk, his glaring weaknesses probably make him "dead".

and yes... if you want to throw this monk against every possible situation you will find ones he will fail in... a more "Well Rounded" monk will do better in that reguard... but this is for the AC Question... you posed that the fighter is always better and the monk can't catch him becuase the armor and shields are just better.

And they are. Watch and learn.

Here is my full example of a by the end Lv 20 Monk for AC….
Maybe I am missing something… Maybe I just don’t understand something… but I don’t see how a Fighter in Armor using core stuff can get this high of an AC….
Even most CR Creatures have a very low chance of beating this AC…
Yes I know some still can beat it.. nothing is 100% against every enemy.

Halfling Lv 20 Monk

Point Buy Character
29 Points 1 over 28 of tougher campaign

9 Con
17 Dex +4 From Lvs +2 Race +5 Book+6 Gloves = 34
9 Str -2 Race = 7 +3 Book +6 Belt = 16
18 Wis +1 From Lvs +5 Book +2 Ioun Stone = 26
9 Int
9 Cha

AC 10 Base+1 Size+4 Class+12 Dex+8 Wis+8 Bracers+5 Natural+5 Deflect Ring+1 Haste = 54

When Fighting just the Lv 20 Fighter +1 From Dodge = AC 55

AC for Touch Attacks 10 Base+1 Size+4 Class+12Dex+8Wis+1Haste = AC 36 +1 Dodge = 37
( Couldn’t remember if Deflection goes to Touch but didn’t think so. )

50% Miss chance from Ring of Blinking ( Even if you can hit the AC )

DR 10 / Magic ( Even if you Hit AC and beat 50% miss Chance )

SR 30

HP ~80 ( This is low… yes… even the 40 from healing only brings it up to 120 )

Ki Strike (Su): Magic / Lawful / Adamantine

Bypasses Hardness as Adamantine

Melee Base +1 Size +3Str +1 While Haste
+20 / +20 / +15 / +10
Flurry of Blows +20 / +20 / +20 / +20 / +15 / +10
Weapon Finesse Dex to Unarmed light weapon instead of Str…& +1 Weapon Focus
Base +1 Size +12 Dex +1 While Haste
+30 / +30 / +25 / +20
Flurry of Blows +30 / +30 / +30 / +30 / +25 / +20

Thrown Base +12Dex + 1 Racial +1 While Haste
+29 / +29 / +24 / +19

Base Attack +15 / +10 / +5
Flurry of Blows +15 / +15 / +15 / +10 / +5

Small Monk Damage by Lv 20 = 2d8+3

+18 Fort base 12 -1Con +1 Racial+5 Cloak+1 Luck
+31 Ref base 12 +12Dex +1 Racial+5 Cloak+1 Luck Improved Evasion (Ex):
+27 Will base 12 +8Will +1 Racial+5 Cloak+1 Luck ( +2 vs Fear )

Speed 20 +60 Enhancement bonus from Class = 80 +30 = 110 for 10 Rounds / Day

Other Abilities:
• +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks, ( From Size : +4 Hide -4 Grapple )
• +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases
immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Timeless Body… Still die at time.. but no negatives for aging
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex):
at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.
+2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.
Ethereal for 20 Rounds / Day
dimension door, once per day
Wholeness of body… Heal self 40 HP / Day ( Su )

Lv 20 Standard Wealth 760,000 GP

137,500 Book +5 Dex
137,500 Book +5 Wis
82,500 Book +3 Str
36,000 Gloves of Dexterity: +6
64,000 Bracers of Armor: +8
50,000 Amulet of Natural Armor: +5
36,000 Belt of Giant Strength: +6
27,000 Ring of Blinking:
50,000 Ring of Protection: +5
12,000 Boots of Speed: Haste for 10 Round / Day
25,000 Cloak of Resistance: +5
58,000 Robe of Stars: travel physically to the Astral Plane, along with all that she is wearing or carrying.
+1 luck bonus on all saving throws.
six of the embroidered stars on the chest portion of the robe as +5 shuriken
12,000 Goggles of Night:
22,000 Mask of the Skull:
8,000 Ioun Stone Incandescent blue +2 Wis

leaves 2,500 GP for Random other stuff….

Feats:
Bonus Stunning Fist 20 / Day DC 28 ( 10 + ½ Lv +Wis )
Bonus Deflect Arrows
Bonus Improved Disarm +4
Lv 1 Dodge
Lv 3 Weapon Focus Unarmed +1
Lv 6 Weapon Finesse
Lv 9 Mobility +4 AC vs Attack of opertunity
Lv 12 Improved Sunder +4
Lv 15 Improved Grapple +4
Lv 18 Blind Fight


……………

Now please show me …. How the fighter in armor can get a Better AC using Core Races and Core Classes and Core Magic Items…. Because I don’t see how….. Maybe I am just missing it but I don’t see it….

By my Math the Core Fighter even with the best Str Best Items and Proper Feats can hope to get to like +40 to hit…

Str 18 +2 Orc +5 Lvs +5 Book +6 Belt = 36 = +13 to Hit +20 Base +5 Item +2 Feats = +40 to Hit.

Barbarian Lv 20 will have a Better Str the Fighter’s Base Attack but lose the +2 from Feats
Str 18 +2 Orc +5 Lvs +5 Book +6 Belt = 36 +8 Rage = 44 = +17 Hit +20 Base +5 Item = +42 to Hit

which only hits the AC 55 Monk ~25% of the time… and 50% of those are likely to be misses from the ring of blinking for a net of about 12% Hit Chance… But the argument was that my poor math skills are keeping me from seeing how the fighter always has a better AC than the Monk…. So please show me if this is true … because I do not see how in the core stuff… and if you let in non-core stuff than the Monk gets even better with Special Magic Items and such that are not in the book such as items that grant effects like the spell Divine Power….

The Best I can see a Lv 20 Fighter Getting for AC is 10 Base + 8 Full Plate +5 Enhanced +3 Dex of 16 + 4 Tower Shield +5 Enhanced +5 Natural Armor +5 Ring of protection = 45 +1 With Dodge +1 if also Small Size = AC 47 Even with +1 from Haste it brings it up to AC = 48… for 7 less than the 55 of the monk….

The Fighter’s Touch AC would be 10 + 3 for a Touch AC of 13 +1 Dodge +1 if small +1 if Haste = AC 16
16 touch AC vs the Touch AC 37 of the Monk or 21 lower…

Both can easily get the 50% miss chance of ring of blinking…. But the Fighter can’t get this 55 AC…. Not any way I see using core stuff…

The other cool thing here… is that the Fighter is maxed out by rules… the Monk is only maxed out by the cost of buying more stuff … like +6 Wisdom Item in the wrong body location… +5 Mighty Fists in Wrong Body Location…. Etc…. but sense these are not in the core rules… I didn’t use them…. But with more money the Lv 20 Monk can still get an even high AC the Fighter I don’t’ see how they can using core rules , magic , classes and limited to Lv 20.

Too bad you are out of money, and those items don't exist. Of course, if you gave the other classes infinite amounts of money they would be able to do all kinds of exotic things too.

The Monk’s to Hit could be improved if +5 Mighty Fists were taken but as the core Items go that would reduce AC… and this monk is about AC…. Compromises could be made to get the to Hit up or the Str up more etc… but this build was about the AC not balancing other things out or making the best to hit monk.… or making a “well Rounded” Monk… that may be better in some cases it may not in others… the question was about AC of the armored Fighter vs the Monk…

No the question was whether a monk was "uber". You've clearly shown that he isn't. And here is the proof that he's not even that good at his own specialty.

20th level Human Fighter

Str 32 (16 base, +5 level, +5 book, +6 gloves), Int 13, Wis 10, Dex 16 (10 base + 6 gloves), Con 20 (14 base +4 book, +2 stone), Cha 8; Fort +24 (+12 base, +5 cloak, +1 stone, +5 ability, +1 ioun), Reflex +18 (+6 base +2 feat +3 ability +5 cloak +1 stone, +1 ioun), Will +16 (+6 base +2 feat, +5 cloak +1 stone, +1 ioun); HD 20d10+100; HP 210 (average); Init +3; Speed 20 feet (30 feet base); AC 46 (+13 armor, +9 shield, +5 ring, +5 natural, +1 ioun, +3 Dex), BAB +20/+15/+10/+5; Grapple +35; Attacks falchion +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 melee (2d4+25, slashing, 16-20 x2), or composite longbow +26/+21/+16/+11 ranged (1d8+13, piercing, 20 x3, 110 feet x10); Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion), Greater Weapon Specialization (Falchion), Improved Critical (Falchion), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Lighning Reflexes, Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Weapon Specialization (Falchion), Quick-Draw; Skills: Climb +28, Handle Animal +6, Jump +20, Ride +31, Swim +13 (all including applicable armor check penalties).

Equipment

+6 belt of giant strength - 36,000 gp
+6 gloves of dexterity - 36,000 gp
+5 amulate of natural armor - 50,000 gp
+5 ring of protection - 50,000 gp
+5 mithral full plate armor - 35,650 gp
+5 animated mithral tower shield - 50,180 gp
+5 cloak of resistance - 25,000 gp
+4 manual of bodily health - 110,000 gp
+5 manual of gainful excercise - 137,500 gp
luckstone 10,000 gp
+5 defending adamantine falchion of speed - 131,350 gp
+2 mighty (+10) composite longbow - 9,100 gp
efficient quiver - 1,800 gp
ioun stone (+1 AC) - 5,000 gp
ioun stone (+2 Constitution) - 8,000 gp
ioun stone (+1 attacks, saves, skills checks, ability checks) - 30,000 gp

TOTAL - 759,580 gp

Now, you look at his AC and say "hey, that's lower than the monk". BUt, since you used situational modifiers for your monk, I'll use them for the fighter. He can use Combat Expertise, and the defending property of his sword to up his AC by +10 points. The final total is:

AC 56 (+13 armor, +9 shield, +5 ring +5 natural +1 stone, +3 Dex, +5 expertise, +5 dfeending weapon).

All core, and I didn't even use things like Dodge, boots of speed, or make him a halfling (which could have raised his AC another 3 points, I'd have had to give up an item for the boots, but then I probably wouldn't have bought the speed property on the falchion and saved a boatload of cash). And the fighter still attacks at +29/+29/+24/+19/+14. Sure, he needs 20s to hit the monk, but the monk needs 20s to hit him. The fighter deals 30 damage on average when he hits. The monk deals 12 on average. The monk has an average of 70 hit points (not ~80 as you erroneously stated). The fighter has an average of 210. The fighter has to hit the monk 3 times, and deal average damage to put the monk down. The monk has to hit the fighter 18 times dealing average damage to put the fighter down. If the monk stops to heal himself, he doesn't get to attack that round. Even if we treat the 40 hit points of healing from wholeness of body as "extra" hit points, the fighter still only needs to hit the monk for times with average damage to put him down. If the monk tries to grapple the fighter, the fighter has +35 to the opposed roll, the monk has +14.

In a fight between the two, assuming they both hit, on average 5% of the time (and assuming 50% of the fighter's attacks miss due to the ring of blinking), and deal average damage per hit (not even including the possibility of critical hits, which, if included, would vastly favor the fighter), the fight would last 20 rounds. The fighter gets 5 attacks per round. For the first ten rounds, the monk would get 6 attacks per round, and then his boots of speed would run out; from then on he gets 5 attacks per round. Some time after the first ten rounds of combat, the monk would need to stop attacking to use wholeness of body.

1st 10 Rounds:

Monk's Average Damage Inflicted Per Round: 3.60
Fighter's Average Damage Inflicted Per Round: 3.75

Remaining Rounds:

Monk's Average Damage Per Round: 3.00
Fighter's Average Damage Per Round: 3.75

The monk is reduced to -3 hit points in Round 20, even after using his entire alotment of wholeness of body. The fighter still has 147 hit points.

As a side note, if the fighter doesn't want to turtle up, he could just let fly at his full attack bonus. In that case, the fight is shorter and bloodier: it lasts on average 8 rounds before the monk goes down, but the monk inflicts more damage too (since the fighter's AC is lower), and the fighter ends the fight with 109 hit points remaining.

Now, exactly how was a monk "uber" and "overpowered" again?

 

[Nail]

I'll say one thing for you, IamIan: You sure do provide a moving target!

Let's recap:
You posted a Mnk 10 grappler, to show how over-powered the Monk class is. Many, many, many people have shown you that your posted monk is just dead meat waiting to be collected.

Now you've tried to show that Monks are overpowered by posting a high- AC Monk. (I congratulate you on your post; it actually has facts we can discuss.) Your Mnk 20's AC is 54, which is great, but his hp is ony 74! That's awful!

(The DR/Magic is irrelevant at that level. Also, given access at EL 20 to See Invisibility and such, the Blinking ain't that great either.)

Your Mnk 20's damage potential is also unimpressive. With flurry and Boots of Speed, you get: +30 / +30 / +30 / +30 / +25 / +20 (2d8+3). Just so we are crystal clear on this:

You posted a Ftr 20 with ~ AC 47. Your Monk 20's average damage per full round attack against this AC is 11.3 hp. (I have a spreadsheet which can calculate this stuff.)

Again: Using a full round attack, your monk does an average of 11.3 hp of damage against a foe with an AC of 47.

For comparison purposes, an Old Red dragon (w/o equipment or draconomicon feats) does 54.2 hp damage per full round attack against AC 47.

For comparison purposes, the half-orc Bbn you propose does 102.0 hp of damage per full round attack against AC 47.

Against your Mnk 20, that same Bbn 20 would do 42.6 hp of damage with a full round attack. Your Mnk 20 would be dead in less than 2 rounds.

Do you see why the rest of us don't think very highly of a monk in toe-to-toe combat?

 

[Iku Rex]

Sure, he needs 20s to hit the monk, but the monk needs 20s to hit him. The fighter deals 30 damage on average when he hits.

(Add +40 damage/hit from power attack - it won't affect the fighter's to-hit chance anyway. And a scythe would be a better weapon.)