D&D 5E Which classes are functionally composite classes to some degree?

[James Gasik]

Oh there's no doubt, Andrew Jackson was a terrible human being, in all senses of the word. But even the forces of darkness have their champions. I used to like bringing up Rasputin, but his legend is less verifiable.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Ah, yes, like how I’m half minotaur and half mermaid.

I just keep picturing your sibling who got the bull’s head and fish tail.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean, if you want to tie things to history then I guess. But why hold the martial artist to a standard that literally no other class in the game is held to? Every class in the game has absorbed the influence of pop cultural tropes and the "monk" needs to get with the times and get out of the 1980s.

The supernatural martial artist in today's pop culture has grown beyond its origins. You've got characters like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Blade, the Jedi from Star Wars, and the Qowat Milat from Star Trek just off the top of my head who are all in that unarmored supernatural hand-to-hand combatant paradigm. The class could be, and IMO should be, a much, much more flexible chasis for character design than the "warrior monk from a 1970s kung fu movie" that it originated from.

So what I did for WoE is first pare down all the classes to basics. We've got Combatants, Mages, Clerics, Rogues and Bards. Then everyone gets feat all the time, some with former class features. Some of these feats have trees that give a theme in place of PrCs/subclasses.

So it came time to do the monk and... I didn't. Not like the D&D monk at least. Instead, I have:

Pugilist tree - punchy style that lets you be one of several types of boxer.

Wrangler tree - grapples and locks. From greco-roman and pro wrestling.

Martial Artist - stance based that focuses on throws, sweeps, and using the full body as a weapon.

And then the fun stuff:

Drunken Boxer - drinks for rounds of drunk condition and spends it for special moves. Doesn't have to be the Jackie Chan drunken master; can be a bar brawler or anyone fueled by liquid courage.

Arcane Armsman - not just martial arts, but infuses attacks with spell effects.

Eight Elements Arsenal - lets you create weapons out of elements for great violence.

Primal Flame Boxer - FIRE PUNCH

And that's just core.

The kicker? You can built it off a Combatant for maximum fighty, but you can also be a Wrassle Wizard, grappling dudes and then dropping touch spells on them in a clench.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Oh there's no doubt, Andrew Jackson was a terrible human being, in all senses of the word. But even the forces of darkness have their champions. I used to like bringing up Rasputin, but his legend is less verifiable.

But a far more awesome 'unarmed strike' if legends hold true.

 

[James Gasik]

And then there's Simo Hayha, who proved one man is equal to 500.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I mean, if you want to tie things to history then I guess. But why hold the martial artist to a standard that literally no other class in the game is held to? Every class in the game has absorbed the influence of pop cultural tropes and the "monk" needs to get with the times and get out of the 1980s.

The supernatural martial artist in today's pop culture has grown beyond its origins. You've got characters like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Blade, the Jedi from Star Wars, and the Qowat Milat from Star Trek just off the top of my head who are all in that unarmored supernatural hand-to-hand combatant paradigm. The class could be, and IMO should be, a much, much more flexible chasis for character design than the "warrior monk from a 1970s kung fu movie" that it originated from.

I never said keep it in the 80's for starts I would steal every mythical martial artist from the last 5 centuries minimum so we would have everything from honourable showing to subzero and Goku to they have dropped in relevance since the 90's as you see more copies of western stuff but I would still investigate.

Every culture has supernatural warriors. The idea that there aren't is a myth used to chain Fantasy to Tolkien and a fake version of why medieval fantasy 'should' be. Remember western fantasy had a dude cutting the tops off mountains, the man who was invincible save for where mommy decided not to double dip him in immortality juice, and Teddy Roosevelt.

that is absolutely true but most of those guys are well a mythic 4e fighter than any edition of monk,

I mean, if you want to tie things to history then I guess. But why hold the martial artist to a standard that literally no other class in the game is held to? Every class in the game has absorbed the influence of pop cultural tropes and the "monk" needs to get with the times and get out of the 1980s.

The supernatural martial artist in today's pop culture has grown beyond its origins. You've got characters like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Blade, the Jedi from Star Wars, and the Qowat Milat from Star Trek just off the top of my head who are all in that unarmored supernatural hand-to-hand combatant paradigm.

blade is a fighter, and buffy is some kind of martial sorcerer as she is a chosen one and is closer to what @Minigiant wants than any for of mystical martial artist.
jedi are difficult as they are also casters.
Qowat milat would work but it is self is inspired by real-world martial arts.
you might be able to argue Hercules as he found the martial art that translated literally is "all might" the west and middle East were weapon lovers primarily, but I want the add in the martial art style generated from literally everywhere even the french slap based one.

And then there's Simo Hayha, who proved one man is equal to 500.

he would be a ranged fighter as he was known for sniping.

The class could be, and IMO should be, a much, much more flexible chasis for character design than the "warrior monk from a 1970s kung fu movie" that it originated from.

so we are in complete agreement?

 

[Jer]

so we are in complete agreement?

Except for the part I was objecting to, which is that getting rid of the Asian stereotypes around the class would be difficult. I personally think they'd be easy - it just takes a design team to decide that it's time to dump the name monk and the trappings around it for the class. They can move those into a subclass if they really feel the need to keep them somewhere.

 

[Vaalingrade]

that is absolutely true but most of those guys are well a mythic 4e fighter than any edition of monk,

Because if you have a good fighter chassis, you don't actually need a monk.

The only problem with the 4e fighter is that it was explicitly the weapon fighter and wasn't geared for unarmed combat.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Except for the part I was objecting to, which is that getting rid of the Asian stereotypes around the class would be difficult. I personally think they'd be easy - it just takes a design team to decide that it's time to dump the name monk and the trappings around it for the class. They can move those into a subclass if they really feel the need to keep them somewhere.

okay, so it is just unarmed fighting then all abilities are just a thousand ways to hit someone? no ninjas at all, no Goku rip-offs just a guy that hit people.
The mystical martial artist is a concept that derives heavily from Asia even the ones made by say Americans are inspired by things people heard about eastern martial artists to remove it is to disconnect it from any inspiration at all, it would be like trying to scrub paladins of knight and crusader elements not possible with basically rendering it unrecognisable and unmoored from history.
it would have the narrative conations of nothing no story it would be pure mechanics.

Because if you have a good fighter chassis, you don't actually need a monk.

The only problem with the 4e fighter is that it was explicitly the weapon fighter and wasn't geared for unarmed combat.

two points
a) with a correct chassis we could also have only one caster it would be un balanceable but it could be done i.e. just beaches we could remove a lot of classes does not mean it should be done or would be desirable.

b) not everyone who knows martial arts is a martial arts class, US marines know hand to hand but it is nowhere near their primary way of fighting and in a match against most masters of equal age would be defeated in a martial arts fight but would win by gun shoot hence one is of the martial arts class the other a fighter class I assume everyone here can see which is which.

personally, I want to make it the closest relative class design-wise the warlock in that you have an almost two subclass system but this would be far easier if I could say it verbally as writing is difficult for me.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The thing is, a martial artist only needs good unarmed attacks and the ability to overcome a lack of magic weapons.

The monk is a big package of weird pieced picked and chosen from old kung-fu movies and doesn't work for other martial artists like boxers or even other martial artists.

Also, everyone knows the US Marines are multiclassed.