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Which feats are "feat tax"?

Quote please! I don't recall any designer ever talking (or writing) about a 50% chance to hit baseline. Afaik, there is no such baseline.
Was said at Gencon in 2008. They said they'd balanced the game around a 50% chance to hit, but found it didn't work because if you missed with Encounter/Daily powers fights ended up taking longer then they wanted, so they made it closer to 55% minimum with primary stat at 16 (3 stat+2 weapon prof = 5. AC 15 even level at level 1, hit on a 10+, 55%) with class features, etc., upping it in some cases. Then people leveled up and the same issue cropped up because average hit went down, so they released Expertise.
 
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Quote please! I don't recall any designer ever talking (or writing) about a 50% chance to hit baseline. Afaik, there is no such baseline.
My fault, I used ambiguous language. By "baseline" I didn't mean the developer's baseline, I meant "without external modifiers." I was calculating your chance to hit with a +2 weapon and no expertise at level 12, which gives you a +15 to hit an AC of 26, or a 50% chance to hit.

However, in my post I quoted the Player's Strategy Guide, which says that the game expects players to have a hit chance of 60-65%.
 

Last you can just play it as is, ignoring the discrepancy, making a character as you see fit, and relying on an epic tier PC's incredibly resilience to survive in the long run. Encounters will be long and drawn out grins, but the party will still likely survive. The upside to this, is that fights in the epic tier really do feel epic and almost hopeless. The PCs will feel outmatched, will miss often, and will watch helplessly as their FRW defenses are autohit or the GM occasionally takes a lone PC out to the woodshed and beats them down, laughing at their ineffectual attacks which must hit on a 15 or higher.

I do not buy this. Having run a campaign through the epic levels, with Expertise, the PCs hit most enemies the vast majority of the time. Sometimes on low single digits. Often with rerolls available for if they did miss. Against the most powerful enemies, ones overlevelled and with enhanced ACs, the PCs were probably looking at a 50/50 hit chance - before adding in modifiers for various powers, items and tactics.

Without Expertise, I am relatively confident that the result would not have been that combats would be "long and drawn out" and leave PCs feeling "hopeless" and "outmatched". Nothing in my experience supports that theory. Everything in my experience tells me that the Expertise 'math fix' was not needed.

But that's just me. I'll admit - not every group will feature heavily optimized PCs. My experience could be out of the ordinary - maybe the players just had more tricks and combos than is usual. I can't say for sure.

However, for myself, I don't believe there was ever a true need for the math fix, nor do I think a game without it is condemned to the fate you describe.
 

There's "The math" which is when people say 'you should hit 50% of the time' or whatever.

Then there's the Math, where you actually bother to do the math and sort it all out and see.

If you remove expertise from the equation, you'll see probabilities generally fluctuate around the 50% mark without buffs.

Let's not pretend that expertise is needed to hit that 50/50 point. That's patently false. Instead, let's examine if that 50/50 point is actually ideal for player attacks.

That is a discussion worth having.

(My opinion is that player attack rate should be a bit higher than that)
 

Just wanted to let everyone know what I decided since this discussion's gone way off what I was asking. I'm giving the players their choice of 1 free feat at 1st level of a list of the most commonly taken feats by all classes (expertise, unarmored agility, melee training). The reason I decided to do this was that 1) there is a math problem but the debate seems to be whether it's a factor at Heroic or if it doesn't start being an issue until Paragon and 2) they're all going to choose one of those feats either at 1st or 2nd level. I want the players choosing feats for their characters, not because they feel they "have to" to stay competitive.

So thanks for the advice, I just wanted to let you guys know so no one posts later saying you're not talking about what I asked because, even though you're not, I've got the information I need for now and your current debate is going to help me in a few months when they get closer to Paragon.
 

I assume those were just examples? Other feats in that class are the Essentials defense feats and Weapon Proficiency (unless you're a dwarf, gith, eladrin, or someone else with a superior weapon+damage boost feat)
 

There's "The math" which is when people say 'you should hit 50% of the time' or whatever.

Then there's the Math, where you actually bother to do the math and sort it all out and see.

If you remove expertise from the equation, you'll see probabilities generally fluctuate around the 50% mark without buffs.

Let's not pretend that expertise is needed to hit that 50/50 point. That's patently false. Instead, let's examine if that 50/50 point is actually ideal for player attacks.

That is a discussion worth having.

(My opinion is that player attack rate should be a bit higher than that)
And 50% is too low according to the extensive play-testing by the developers. 55% minimum for a 16 starting stat was their goal. Which they achieved.... with Expertise. The level-by-level breakdown just enforces this point, starting with 60% with an 18 in a stat (which is 55% with a 16) is the minimum. Math works as intended... with Expertise.

I think this is probably the reason 4e combat drags for so many people, actually. If you're getting CA, keeping up on your weapon enhancement, etc., (that group coordination thing) the expected to-hit percent is around 70-75%. If your group isn't between 55-75% accuracy vs even level, combat is going to drag (just as the developers found it did in playtesting, which is why they designed 55% to be the absolute minimum, even for unoptimized characters).

Missing is not fun, and neither are unnecessarily long combats.
 

I do not buy this. Having run a campaign through the epic levels, with Expertise, the PCs hit most enemies the vast majority of the time. Sometimes on low single digits. Often with rerolls available for if they did miss. Against the most powerful enemies, ones overlevelled and with enhanced ACs, the PCs were probably looking at a 50/50 hit chance - before adding in modifiers for various powers, items and tactics.

I mentioned another option right above the one you quoted which included a well designed party of optimized characters which will have no problem getting the necessary bonuses to succeed in the epic tier and which will consequently see no difference in the length of combats. Since your group all had expertise, I think that is where your group falls. The example of mine that you quoted is for the PCs that decided they'd rather have Linguistics than an Expertise feat.

An unoptimized character that begins with a 16 attack stat, uses a +2 weapon, and doesn't take a stat boosting epic destiny is looking at a +30 to hit vs. AC at lvl 30. A 30th lvl skirmisher has an AC of 44. That PC has a 35% chance to hit them. Orcus has an AC of 48, that PC has a 15% chance to hit him. CA can increase those chances by 10%. Better stat or proficiency choices can also increase this by 10%. Put this PC in a party which isn't designed to provide them a buff on every attack, and they will miss more than they will hit. An unoptimized PC will also have a poor FRW defense of 35 at lvl 30, which is pretty much an autohit. PCs like this can spend an entire encounter locked down with status effects, and need a buff on every attack to hit more than they miss. The example I quoted is for a party of these kinds of PCs, as well as those that may be missing a role (especially leader or controller). Longer combats with more misses are what they are in for in the epic tier. The feelings of hopelessness comes more from the DM exploiting autohit defenses to take a PC out of the majority of the fight and then either gank them or exploit battlefield attrition to focus fire on the back line. Like I said, they'll succeed, it'll will just take longer and they'll have more turns spent missing or tied down by status effects than they did in the heroic tier. I think this has its advantages, and is fine for many groups. I especially like it in that it makes the epic tier actually feel epic. Hitting Orcus should require careful planning and tactics. I was also saying that this may not be the best choice for some groups. My more casual players, for instance, hated it.

The more this sort of party optimizes by taking expertise, defense boosting feats, accurate weapons...., and the more they choose powers based on what works for the team, the closer they get to the other example I showed which will see no real difference. But this does enforce design constraints on a PC, and that is the disadvantage of compensating for the math discrepancy in this manner. There is less room for characters who would rather choose Linguistics than Expertise or want to use a suboptimal build or even weapon because they think they are cool.

I want my PCs to hit at least 60% of the time, and would prefer it be closer to 75%. Psychological I think it is more fun. I would rather challenge them with deadlier (higher damage) monsters or tactical challenges built into encounter design, than rely on dice roll probability to increase difficulty. So I give them free feats to shore up attack and defense math and still allow them to take suboptimal feats. Combat is a short deadly affair of rocket tag for my my group, and that's what we enjoy. But that's us, other people would hate that flavor.

Fortunately D&D is a vast and nuanced game, with plenty of leeway built into how you challenge your PCs, and how you want to play. Hence my belief that groups should pick their poison, and counter the math in whatever manner is the most fun for them.
 

I want my PCs to hit at least 60% of the time, and would prefer it be closer to 75%. Psychological I think it is more fun. I would rather challenge them with deadlier (higher damage) monsters or tactical challenges built into encounter design, than rely on dice roll probability to increase difficulty. So I give them free feats to shore up attack and defense math and still allow them to take suboptimal feats. Combat is a short deadly affair of rocket tag for my my group, and that's what we enjoy. But that's us, other people would hate that flavor.

I agree with this for the most part. Not to mention, it makes combat seem more "realistic" time wise. If each round is 5-12 (whatever it may be) assuming you're swinging, moving, parrying, slashing, gashing, and even mashing, it feels much more appropriate to get it done "faster."
 

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