Which feats are "taxes"?

+1 to attack is more than +5% damage. If you need a 9 or better to hit, then it's +8.3% damage. If you need 11 or better, it's +10%. If you're fighting a higher-level soldier or solo monster and need a 13 or better, it's +12.5%.
Yep yep. The necessity of the feat is a function of expected damage.

As to your other points, I agree that one tends to run out of exciting/interesting feats by Paragon or so (which is a problem in itself), but the real problem with feat taxes is that players who don't grok the math are likely to end up with gimped characters because they don't realize that Expertise is a necessary fix.
Again, absolutely right.

One of the things 4e was supposed to have gotten rid of was the disproportionate rewards of system mastery (i.e. the opposite of "my character is tough, so I should take Toughness!"). That we're seeing this much discussion around the Expertise feats shows, if nothing else, that there are still people who just don't get how the system works.

That ought to be fine. 4e ought to be built so those people aren't at such a stark disadvantage compared to those of us who do understand it.

Clearly, it's failing in that regard.

Oh well, -- N
 

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Although I am not adamantly opposed to the Expertise Feats, I can see where they do restrict players' perceived freedom to choose.

The ranger in the group I run chose Alertness to avoid giving combat advantage during surprise rounds and Expert Tracker because he knew that enchanted forests and other outdoor settings figure large in my imagination. Plus both of those feats matched his image of a ranger.

Nevertheless the situations to use those two feats occured very rarely if ever. On the other hand trying to hit and doing damage occured every single combat encounter: so he eventually retrained for feats like that.

Had he been able to choose mroe feats he definitely would have kept the more interesting situational feats.

Nonetheless, I still maintain that it was his choice to emphasize his combat prowess. (Of course Alertness was a poor choice for a ranger anyways, since his superhuman perception prevented him from ever being surprised.)
 

It is impossible to answer the question "which feats are a feat tax" because there is no meaning to the words "feat tax" other than a hastily-crafted pejorative used by people with little regard to self-reflection.

We don't call having an 18 in your attack stat an Attribute Tax, we don't call buying a +1 weapon by level 5 a Treasure Tax. People complain about Expertise more because it is a boring feat compared to the other (semi-optimal) options. Magic items go whiz-bang and Attributes define characters; we don't have the proper concept to define a feat, and so any feat that doesn't have cool effects is looked down upon.

People spend feats to do stuff- that is what you do with them. Expertise is a Great feat, but it isn't the only one nor is it going to be the only one. Just because you can't flip out and do cool stuff with it other than smile when you roll an 8 doesn't mean you're paying a Feat Tax to play the game, any more than you are paying an Elf tax to play an Elf.
 

It is impossible to answer the question "which feats are a feat tax" because there is no meaning to the words "feat tax" other than a hastily-crafted pejorative used by people with little regard to self-reflection.

Um... okay. Self-reflection?

We don't call having an 18 in your attack stat an Attribute Tax, we don't call buying a +1 weapon by level 5 a Treasure Tax.

Those things are problems too. I constantly gripe about +X items, and I'm unfond of attack stats - I think attack bonus should be a strict function of class and level, no stats or magic items involved. No, I do not use the specific terms "attribute tax" or "treasure tax," but I do regard those as Bad Things, and for the same reason; they create traps for the non-expert player (or DM, for magic items), and restrict the choices of the expert player, without providing any benefit.

In general, "Well, if THIS is so bad, why aren't you complaining about THAT?" is a lousy argument. I wasn't complaining about THAT because THIS was the topic under discussion, but if you want to bring THAT up, I'll complain about it too.
 
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It is impossible to answer the question "which feats are a feat tax" because there is no meaning to the words "feat tax" other than a hastily-crafted pejorative used by people with little regard to self-reflection.

Quite the contrary. It's possible and the few people who contributed constructively to this thread have done so.
 

Had he been able to choose mroe feats he definitely would have kept the more interesting situational feats.

Or, if feats which added to attack and damage weren't as available and so prominently better for his character.

Nonetheless, I still maintain that it was his choice to emphasize his combat prowess. (Of course Alertness was a poor choice for a ranger anyways, since his superhuman perception prevented him from ever being surprised.)

Of course it's his choice. He'd just be less effective if he didn't. Which is a shame. In a perfect world picking feats that are flavorful and appropriate for your character would not notably detract from the character's effectiveness.

I do wonder at this point how many feats are considered automatic for different character types. Like if you look at 16th level characters of various races and classes in a vacuum (ie, before attaching a personality) and ask what feats they should definitely have, before considering RP based choices.

Like a dwarf ranger, you'd have people go dwarven weapon training, weapon expertise, lethal hunter... maybe those two feats that give +5 damage with prime shot and apply prime shot to melee attacks as long as that'd work for your group. Dwarven durability might get listed, cause it's totally cool, but maybe buckets of healing isn't of interest. Deadly Axe might get listed, but it's really not that big a damage difference. I'm sure there are others that certain people would note as basically necessary, I don't actually know paragon dwarves or rangers that well.

So, then you'd look and go 'Well, I really want to take Linguist instead of <Expertise/Dwarven Weapon Training>' and go 'Well, am I okay losing +2 attack or +3 damage (equivalent) on every single attack, of which I make ten or more per battle, or about 200 per adventure, in exchange for this feat which will help once per adventure at most and can be easily replicated through item, ritual, or a cool RP scene with charades'

And yeah, it's hard to fault anyone for taking the one the game is beating them over the head with math to take.

It's not a real choice. They're crazy not to take it. And so you might as well write it down and remove one slot from consideration. Is that a tax? Well, that's just a fancy way of calling it that way. Perhaps it's an injustice, instead. Perhaps it's a theft. Perhaps it's piracy, apparently that word is all the rage for things it's not, and it evokes cries of Yarrr and thoughts of ninjas, so it's totally on the cool meter.

Me, all I care is that it's one less feat I get to look for something neat for my character. One more feat that will widen the gap between those in the Know and those just showing up to have some fun. One less opportunity for 'Ooh, you took X. Neat!'

It's great for the effectiveness of the character. It's kinda sad otherwise. Not good for the game. If it's so important characters get that, then just give it to them all*. If it's not important, don't put in a feat that is better than all other feats.

That and I'd like to see more variety in the weapons people use. Like that dwarf ranger using a hammer in one hand and an axe in the other. I've even got a good mini for that, but taking the feats twice is all kinds of bonkers.

* Poor Paladin Scions of Arkhosia... need weapon expertise for their sword, implement expertise for their holy symbol, and... just are 2 hit behind... on all of their breath weapon/paragon effects.
 

Poor Paladin Scions of Arkhosia... need weapon expertise for their sword, implement expertise for their holy symbol, and... just are 2 hit behind... on all of their breath weapon/paragon effects.

See this is my main problem right here...you took 2 feats to INCREASE these things, but instead of calling it a bonus, you say the breath and like attacks are behind...

Glass half empty/ Glass half full...

You have taken feats to become expererts in both your holy symbol and your sword (most likly heavy blade), witch was a choose you made that shows the growth of your character...

Notice the same character that replaces those feats with enlarge breath weapon and the feat that adds radiant to the breath weapon has th oppisite complaint... His BW attacks have improved but not his holy symbol and weapon...
 


Just so I'm clear, GMfPG you're saying that once Expertise is at +2 to hit or better, you wouldn't bother to take them?

what I am saying is sometimes I do and sometimes I don't...

I am one of the (it seams few) people who played all the way to epic pre phb2 preivews...I did it 3 times. Once we played a 1 level per game, I died at level 27. Once we started at level 12 and we were level 29 when the expertise feat came out, and Once we ran a 24th-28th level scenero.

I have also played the delves (level 1 lowest and level 26 highest) for delve night with the same basic character I use as my main LFR character (Half elf swordmage(multi wizard) pargon multi. he doesn't have expertise yet, although I might pick it up at higher levels.

Now that is not to say I never use it. I have a character that has it, and plan on a 2nd.
1) I am planing on replaying my swordmage in a h1-e3 set of mods a new DM is runing...He will this time be an eladrin, with the feat that lets the eladrin use his sword as a wand, and foucused expertise.

2) I have a dwarven fighter at level 12 who has only a 16 str so he took it to up his attack rolls

I run 2 games as well, one running the h1-e3 series, and a homebrew. I have 6 players in 1 and 5 in the other.

out of 11 characters (6 epic, 5 11th level) I have 5 characters with it. 4 of those characters are played be the same 2 people though,

The avenger who only misses on negative numbers (technicly 1;s), same player has a fighter/kensi with expertise.

The Fighter in the epic and the same player has an invoker in the paragon.

We then in the epic game the taclord/battlecaptian/legendary gen has it in the epic game

compaired to: the rouge, swordmage, and wizard in epic are doing fine, infact the swordmage some how has the highest hit and crit rate...and the Bard, Ranger and Barbarian don't in the paragon one.

so what I am saying is like all feats they are choices...

((((Remember I am still for lowering them, as I said before...I just don't see them as taxes)))
 

So, if a feat were created that gave +5 damage per tier. You'd contend it was a valid choice to not take the feat, because the characters were fine without it.

And that the feat wasn't harmful for the game, as written?

Arguing whether something is a tax or not is a semantic, and not useful argument, if you feel that the feats aren't appropriate.
 

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