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Which Mythologies/Pantheons do you want?

Which Mythologies/Pantheons would you like detailed?

  • African

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • Amerindian (North American)

    Votes: 4 25.0%
  • Aztec (Central American)

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • Canaanite/Phoenician

    Votes: 7 43.8%
  • Celtic

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Chinese

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Egyptian

    Votes: 8 50.0%
  • Finnish

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • Greek

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • Incan (South American)

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • Indian (Hindu/Vedic)

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • Japanese

    Votes: 7 43.8%
  • Mesopotamian (Babylonian/Sumerian)

    Votes: 8 50.0%
  • Norse

    Votes: 8 50.0%
  • Oceanic

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • Persian

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Slavic (Polish/Russian)

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Obscure Real World (Australian, Korean etc.)

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • Fictional/Occult (Atlantean etc.)

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • Something Else (post below)

    Votes: 1 6.3%

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hi all! :)

Okay, curious to know which Mythologies/Pantheons people most want to see.

Just to let you know you can make multiple choices.
 
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Center-of-All

First Post
I voted for the particularly obscure ones you have listed (Canaanite, Amerindian, Oceanic, etc.), largely because I feel your talents would be better spent in that area. Once they get your system down, almost anyone could make a servicable Greek/Norse/Egyptian pantheon, considering how well known they are. Very, very few people (even gamers) would know where to begin to put an Oceanic pantheon together.

Also, aren't African and Amerindian awefully broad categories? Unless I'm much mistaken, these are broad categorizations of cultures, each with its own religious beliefs. It just seems kinda like smashing the Norse, Greek, Roman(you missed this one, by the way, and no it's not just the greek pantheon), and Celtic pantheons together into one 'European' pantheon. There's solid enough support to justify doing so, but you're losing alot by doing so.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

Center-of-All said:
I voted for the particularly obscure ones you have listed (Canaanite, Amerindian, Oceanic, etc.), largely because I feel your talents would be better spent in that area. Once they get your system down, almost anyone could make a servicable Greek/Norse/Egyptian pantheon, considering how well known they are. Very, very few people (even gamers) would know where to begin to put an Oceanic pantheon together.

I discussed this recently with someone from these forums via email. I wanted to have three small pdfs. Mesopotamian, Persian and Canaanite which could be released individually and then lumped together to form some sort of Middle-Eastern section of the Immortals Index.

They suggested that more people would probably want to see the Greek, Norse and Egyptian mythos.

I sort of felt a tad fed up with seeing the same old pantheons in other peoples books. Of course this would be me doing it... ;) ...but even so. Of course I ultimately want to be able to do every pantheon, but again, this is me... :eek: ...so maybe I shouldn't try to run before I can walk.

Center-of-All said:
Also, aren't African and Amerindian awefully broad categories? Unless I'm much mistaken, these are broad categorizations of cultures, each with its own religious beliefs. It just seems kinda like smashing the Norse, Greek, Roman(you missed this one, by the way, and no it's not just the greek pantheon), and Celtic pantheons together into one 'European' pantheon. There's solid enough support to justify doing so, but you're losing alot by doing so

As I see it, much of the African and Amerindian mythology is basically the same group of deities given different names for different tribes/countries/territories. I know thats doing them a slight disservice, but thats the way I see it.

Just like the vast majority see the Greek and Roman gods as the same with different names. Same with the Canaanite/Phoenician, same with Babylonian/Sumerian, same with Aztec/Mayan, same with Irish/Welsh.

Yes you can subdivide, but more often that not any such division is a mere facade.

Normally I suggest that you reverse all the alignments and make the 'alter-ego' pantheon a sort of evil doppelganger.

So the good greek gods will be evil Roman gods and vice versa.

But that it itself doesn't call for an entire seperate entry for each deity. It just calls for a footnote.
 

Center-of-All

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
As I see it, much of the African and Amerindian mythology is basically the same group of deities given different names for different tribes/countries/territories. I know thats doing them a slight disservice, but thats the way I see it.

Just like the vast majority see the Greek and Roman gods as the same with different names. Same with the Canaanite/Phoenician, same with Babylonian/Sumerian, same with Aztec/Mayan, same with Irish/Welsh.

Yes you can subdivide, but more often that not any such division is a mere facade.

Normally I suggest that you reverse all the alignments and make the 'alter-ego' pantheon a sort of evil doppelganger.

So the good greek gods will be evil Roman gods and vice versa.

But that it itself doesn't call for an entire seperate entry for each deity. It just calls for a footnote.

Thing is, the Greek and Roman gods aren't just the same figures renamed. The Romans just associated their deitys with the Greek ones to lend themselves credibility. Mars has a very different personality than Ares, notably lacking the cowardice and bloodlust of the latter, being a model roman soldier. Jupiter didn't have Zeus' characteristic lecherousness, and Juno had none of Hera's jealousy or nagging qualities. As a whole, the Greek gods were more interesting, but they were definately different enough to not be the same pantheon, nor do the Roman gods fit the 'evil doppelganger' paradigm (Vesta, most notably, was not any more malicious than Hestia). And what about gods like Janus or Quirinus, who have no opposite counterpart?


As for the divisions you mention, yes you can see them that way, but the same goes for the various european/near-eastern pantheons. Demeter is really just a variation on Isis, Aphrodite is Innana/Ishtar, Thor bears a striking resemblance to Heracles, etc. This sort of conflation is possible with almost any cultures that share a similar geographical area. It's just the relative obscurity of these religions that tends to give this sort of impression. People think of subsaharic Africa as a single monolithic culture, ignorant of the enormous differences between the ancient Ethiopians and Khoisan Bushmen, and completely unaware that the Haida aren't at all similar to the Iroquois Confederacy. This ignorance extends to their religions, but that's no reason to encourage that in your works.

PS: Persia isn't part of the Middle East:p. I'd personally put it closer to the Vedic pantheon. A suitable replacement might be something from pre-Islam Arabia, but that may be difficult to find information on.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
WarDragon said:
Regardless of my votes, I'd like to see anything you have left to do in 3.5.

I agree (though I think we've made that view clear, so perhaps we don't need to bring that debate here).
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Howdy Center-of-All! :)

Center-of-All said:
Thing is, the Greek and Roman gods aren't just the same figures renamed. The Romans just associated their deitys with the Greek ones to lend themselves credibility. Mars has a very different personality than Ares, notably lacking the cowardice and bloodlust of the latter, being a model roman soldier. Jupiter didn't have Zeus' characteristic lecherousness, and Juno had none of Hera's jealousy or nagging qualities.

So basically (it sounds like what you're saying is) you could handle the Roman counterparts of all three by using the same stats and simply reversing their alignments. ;)

As a whole, the Greek gods were more interesting, but they were definately different enough to not be the same pantheon, nor do the Roman gods fit the 'evil doppelganger' paradigm (Vesta, most notably, was not any more malicious than Hestia).

If they are originally neutral then they'd be neutral in the other pantheon too.

And what about gods like Janus or Quirinus, who have no opposite counterpart?

Janus I'll be using in a non-Roman capacity as one of the Inevitables. I don't like Immortals of Time. I think Time should be above immortals.

As for Quirinus...here follows a list of Minor Roman Gods...don't expect to see (stats for) any of them (other than perhaps on a list of quasi-deities/demi-deities) in the Immortals Index...though one or two are likely to show up in Gods & Monsters. ;)

http://www.unrv.com/culture/minor-roman-god-list.php

As for the divisions you mention, yes you can see them that way, but the same goes for the various european/near-eastern pantheons. Demeter is really just a variation on Isis, Aphrodite is Innana/Ishtar, Thor bears a striking resemblance to Heracles, etc. This sort of conflation is possible with almost any cultures that share a similar geographical area.

The difference being that all those gods mentioned have their own legends and are clearly distinctive enough to warrant their own entry/stats. Heracles doesn't have different legends than Hercules. Mars may have been held in higher esteem by soldiers than Ares, but there simply isn't enough to make a distinction worthy of a full new suite of stats.

It's just the relative obscurity of these religions that tends to give this sort of impression. People think of subsaharic Africa as a single monolithic culture, ignorant of the enormous differences between the ancient Ethiopians and Khoisan Bushmen, and completely unaware that the Haida aren't at all similar to the Iroquois Confederacy. This ignorance extends to their religions, but that's no reason to encourage that in your works.

Its not about ignorance, its simply about creating a feasible Pantheon, which, taken at face value, you can't have with African Mythology because basically every tribe has its own (name for the) Skyfather: Imana, Chuku, Kaang, Leza, Mawu-Leza, Mlungu, Mwezo, Ruhanga, Unkulunkulu, Wele, Zanahary. Thats a quick list of African Creator/Supreme/Sky deities from a five minute search through one of my mythology books. Its also not like you can say all these gods existed and interacted, because there are no legends (as far as my knowledge of African myth go) of gods from one tribe interacting with gods of another tribe.

Theoretically it might be possible to concoct some sort of over-arching African Pantheon from a bunch of tribal Sub-Pantheons, but all the primary deities therein are going to be Creator/Supreme/Sky, which seems compeltely unsatisfactory.

So either you have multiple Pantheons for each tribe. Completely self-defeating. Or, we take the main gods with the best legends and characteristics fulfilling a given role and fashion it into a workable Pantheon.

PS: Persia isn't part of the Middle East :p

Here is a map of the Middle East as defined by wikipedia. See the biggest country within it, thats Iran. Iran = Persia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East

I'd personally put it closer to the Vedic pantheon. A suitable replacement might be something from pre-Islam Arabia, but that may be difficult to find information on.

Persia is the very definition OF the Middle East. Classically, Persia was the middle of the trade route between Europe (the west) and China (the east).
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey WarDragon mate! :)

WarDragon said:
Regardless of my votes, I'd like to see anything you have left to do in 3.5.

Well obviously the next book will be 3.5 (and my last 3.5 book) and have Gods in it, although this poll (more specifically) is for the 4E stuff after that.
 

Center-of-All

First Post
Heh, now I feel like a shmuck. I'd always learned that the Middle-East went as far east as Iraq (not counting the peninsula), and that Iran was something else entirely. Go figure. Sorry if I sounded rude.

Although, I would hardly call Quirinus minor. He was a member of the Capitoline Triad, was served by flamines maiores, and more than any other was the god of Rome.
 

WarDragon

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Hey WarDragon mate! :)



Well obviously the next book will be 3.5 (and my last 3.5 book) and have Gods in it, although this poll (more specifically) is for the 4E stuff after that.
Well then, reduce the Amerind, Aztec, Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, and Mesopotamian vote counts by 1. I don't care to see anything done for 4e.
 

dante58701

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Well obviously the next book will be 3.5 (and my last 3.5 book) and have Gods in it, although this poll (more specifically) is for the 4E stuff after that.

Will it include any crunchy, delicious monsters and templates? =^.^=

How bout multi-armed, multi-headed, flesh-eating gobblers of doomy doom doom? =^.^=

Side question...

Regarding Elder Ones...

Do they count the demi-plane, planar layer, or celestial body (planet, moon, ect.) as their Godly Realm? Because...as stated...they don't have a Godly Realm and thus...no powers associated with it.

Shouldn't they have...Godly Realm (Area: Celestial Body, Demi-Plane, or Planar Layer) as an ability???

WarDragon said:
Well then, reduce the Amerind, Aztec, Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, and Mesopotamian vote counts by 1. I don't care to see anything done for 4e.

I second that motion.
 
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Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Howdy Center-of-All! :)

Center-of-All said:
Heh, now I feel like a shmuck. I'd always learned that the Middle-East went as far east as Iraq (not counting the peninsula), and that Iran was something else entirely. Go figure. Sorry if I sounded rude.

Don't worry about it, no harm done. I was just thinking somebody sack this guy's Geography Teacher. ;)

Center-of-All said:
Although, I would hardly call Quirinus minor. He was a member of the Capitoline Triad, was served by flamines maiores, and more than any other was the god of Rome.

I suspect the vast majority of people on these forums would never have heard of him - many on the list were certainly new to me.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey WarDragon mate! :)

WarDragon said:
Well then, reduce the Amerind, Aztec, Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, and Mesopotamian vote counts by 1. I don't care to see anything done for 4e.

Fair enough, of course you know all the other information would be of interest (just not the 4E stats) and the 4E stats could always be converted using the patented Krusty 3E to 4E Level Converter*. :)

*Which will probably appear on my website tonight. ;)
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Howdy dante! :)

dante58701 said:
Will it include any crunchy, delicious monsters and templates? =^.^=

Almost certainly.

How bout multi-armed, multi-headed, flesh-eating gobblers of doomy doom doom? =^.^=

Anythings possible at this stage.

Side question...

Regarding Elder Ones...

Do they count the demi-plane, planar layer, or celestial body (planet, moon, ect.) as their Godly Realm? Because...as stated...they don't have a Godly Realm and thus...no powers associated with it.

Shouldn't they have...Godly Realm (Area: Celestial Body, Demi-Plane, or Planar Layer) as an ability???

Elder Ones ARE the planar layers. The 5th layer of Hell - thats a trapped Elder One. The 44th layer of the Abyss thats a trapped Elder One. The 3rd layer of the Seven Heavens - thats a trapped Cherubim. etc.

I second that motion.

Hear the creaking under your feet, thats the thin ice you are walking on. Careful how you step. ;)
 


dante58701

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Elder Ones ARE the planar layers. The 5th layer of Hell - thats a trapped Elder One. The 44th layer of the Abyss thats a trapped Elder One. The 3rd layer of the Seven Heavens - thats a trapped Cherubim. etc.

Yes...I get that. But what powers would a manifestation possess while in that planar layer?

Does an elder one impose a -24 penalty on all rolls?

Do they completely control the landscape?

Can they kick other beings out of their own self?

Do they control every aspect of reality within their own layer?

Are deities essentially parasites living on the elder one?

Does an elder one's -24 penalty supersede a greater deities control over it's godly realm when that godly realm is ON the elder one?

Seriously...this needs to be covered more thoroughly.

Also...what sensory benefits does a deity's divine aura give him? Does it function like blindsight? Does it allow him telepathy? ...clairvoyance? ...clairaudience?

These features need to more fleshed out.

Upper_Krust said:
Hear the creaking under your feet, thats the thin ice you are walking on. Careful how you step. ;)

I'm a member of The Polar Bear Club. =^.^= I like icewater!!! :p
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey dante! :)

dante58701 said:
Yes...I get that. But what powers would a manifestation possess while in that planar layer?

Does an elder one impose a -24 penalty on all rolls?

Yes.

Do they completely control the landscape?

Yes, as reflected by the -24 penalty to opponent rolls.

Can they kick other beings out of their own self?

Not automatically.

Do they control every aspect of reality within their own layer?

As reflected by the -24 penalty to opponent rolls.

Are deities essentially parasites living on the elder one?

Well not necessarily. A parasite feeds off the host in some way, not sure exactly how gods do that to an Elder One.

Does an elder one's -24 penalty supersede a greater deities control over it's godly realm when that godly realm is ON the elder one?

No, but the two would overlap so the Elder One would still gain a -8 penalty versus such a greater god.

Also...what sensory benefits does a deity's divine aura give him? Does it function like blindsight? Does it allow him telepathy? ...clairvoyance? ...clairaudience?

These features need to more fleshed out.

Yes to all the above.



I'm a member of The Polar Bear Club. =^.^= I like icewater!!! :p
 

dante58701

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
No, but the two would overlap so the Elder One would still gain a -8 penalty versus such a greater god.

Needs clarification in the rules set. Perhaps you could simply add a little section on Sidereal's (and higher) and their control over their own selves. Otherwise people who buy Ascension will surely end up VERY confused.

Upper_Krust said:
Yes to all the above.

Also needs clarification in the rules set. Perhaps you could simply add a little section on divine senses. Otherwise people who buy Ascension will surely end up VERY confused.

It's not like it says clairaudience/clairvoyance, telepathy, ect. apply to a deity's divine aura and it doesn't state that they can sense everything within their divine aura as per blindsense, blindsight, ect.

Most people would just look at it as written and go..."Ok...so...can they sense their followers? Does their divine aura allow them to sense anything?"

It's one of those major things that seems to keep coming up in our campaigns. We've had so many discussions about it that we've been sidetracked more than once.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
As of time of posting the Top Ten are as follows:

1) Atlantean

2) Egyptian
2) Greek
2) Japanese

5) Caanaanite
5) Mesopotamian

7) Norse

8) Chinese
8) Persian
8) Slavic
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey all! :)

Tried to post last night, but ENWorld is a bit temperamental lately.

Okay looking at the results:

Fictional/Atlantean = 15

Greek = 14
Japanese = 14

Egyptian = 13

Canaanite = 12
Mesopotamian = 12
Norse = 12

Chinese = 11
Slavic = 11

Persian = 10

Aztec = 9
Hindu = 9

Celtic = 8
N. American = 8
Oceanic = 8

Finnish = 7

African = 6

Lesser Known/Australian = 5

Incan = 4

While fictional (and presumably Atlantean) is top, I think it would be better to set out the first volume or two with established Pantheons/Mythologies.

Between Greek and Japanese I must admit I am a lot more confident (at this juncture) with Greek mythology.

I have also been thinking that if any Pantheon/Mythology has an obvious 'spin-off' or parallel mythos (Greek-Roman, Celtic-Welsh, Aztec-Mayan, Norse-Teutonic, Sumerian-Babylonian, Hindu-Tibetan etc.) That it would also be covered in any such book.

Interestingly, I have been brainstorming for (among other things) the adventure and the first one will probably have an Egyptian theme in it to the extent that quite a large chunk of what would comprise an Egyptian pantheon book will probably be detailed.

So the first Immortals Index will probably be the Greek and Roman Gods. Its high on the list, well known to me, has some great monsters and is generally the defacto mythology when talking about mythology - so it will establish a good base. Of course the flipside to that is that the mythology is so familiar there is little surprise in it anymore...but hopefully I can change all that. ;)

Not sure what the second volume will be, but I'll do a bit more reading up on Japanese mythology and see how I like it.

I'm getting my new computer (a laptop) at the end of this week and then I'll start typing up my notes and see how easy 4E really is to design for. I'd still love to do an 'old school' Deities & Demigods type book with multiple mythologies in it. Though I think the trade off is always going to be the level of detail you give each immortal. As we can see from Orcus entry in the Monster Manual, even a basic treatment takes a few pages. In a multiple mythos book, elements like Aspects, Exarchs and High Priests might only be mentioned (with intended levels) and not detailed.
 

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