D&D General Which of these should be core classes for D&D?

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, and if I was that other character I'd be in that Warlord's face after a couple of combats, telling him where he could shove his granted actions and suggesting he get in there and get his uniform dirty with the rest of us.

So, you'd be telling other people how to play the game and how to play their characters?
Do you tell that to the wizard casting Haste on you? (That spell had some nasty side effects in certain editions, too, but I'm betting you didn't, you just expected to be asked about whether you wanted to age or risk losing a turn if the caster's concentration was broken.)

Which comes squarely under b) in-party fight generator.

That would be entirely on you, Lanefan. Why are you picking hypothetical fights?

I ain't dying in the front line just so he - who fights as well as I do! - can stand back there unscathed.

TBF, the extreme 'Lazy' form of the build was fairly worthless on it's own, it would invest in all action granting and effect-line exploits, and high INT to maximize them, and ignore STR thus would melee attack as well as, well, a wizard.

A legit Tactical Warlord would often attack on it's own, possibly granting an ally an action in addition to that, but did have an at-will to just grant an attack (with a damage bonus), if that seemed the best use of an action.

Turning the thief into the "striker" was the worst choice in all of WotC D&D

It kinda goes all the way back to the og Thief's Backstab

 

[Reynard]

It kinda goes all the way back to the og Thief's Backstab

In my experience, setting up a backstab was a lot of work and you certainly didn't do it nearly every round of every combat.

 

[TwoSix]

Turning the thief into the "striker" was the worst choice in all of WotC D&D

Heh. I remember reading Warcraft previews back in 2002 where they described the rogue as a "primary damage dealer", leaning back, and thinking "Wow, that would be absolutely perfect for D&D to lean into."

 

[Reynard]

Heh. I remember reading Warcraft previews back in 2002 where they described the rogue as a "primary damage dealer", leaning back, and thinking "Wow, that would be absolutely perfect for D&D to lean into."

Well, I hope you're proud of yourself!

 

[TwoSix]

Well, I hope you're proud of yourself!

Usually.

Nah, it's just funny to me that an idea that I was struck by as being a perfect for the class identity is something that someone else can feel is precisely opposed to the class concept. It kind of illustrates how reaching anything like a majority for something like class design is so difficult.

 

[Vaalingrade]

In my experience, setting up a backstab was a lot of work and you certainly didn't do it nearly every round of every combat.

From what I've been told, you spent all your time trying though.

So the next step was making it so you aren't constantly trying to be your class and just let you be your class. Like the reverse of cantrips where you ran out of the ability to be your class and that was the problem.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Well, I hope you're proud of yourself!

I'd be more proud of going back in time 2 years to get that added to 3e where the flank conga line really did make the rogue a primary damage dealer.

 

[TwoSix]

I'd be more proud of going back in time 2 years to get that added to 3e where the flank conga line really did make the rogue a primary damage dealer.

Even back in the early days of 3e, rogues still felt more like stealth/skill experts, with the idea of high spike damage being an occasional benefit of being stealthy. WoW was the first time I got exposed to the idea of the rogue being "primarily" a high damage class, with its exploration and scouting abilities being secondary.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Even if ranger got turned into a pure martial or merged with rogue/fighter, I'd still want a primal themed half caster as its own class.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Even if ranger got turned into a pure martial or merged with rogue/fighter, I'd still want a primal themed half caster as its own class.

fair it would need use to define the half and what primal is