Which of these two methods would you choose for implementing armor DR rules... ?

[Azlan]

First, two assumptions: 1.) You want to implement rules that give defenders DR (damage reduction) for their armor, instead of having armor making it more difficult to attack (i.e. "to hit") defenders. 2.) Of the many different ways to implement this, you've narrowed it down to the following two methods...

Method #1: The "armor" bonus for armor (whether for a suit of armor, or for natural armor, or for a magical "armor" bonus) becomes the defender's DR, instead of adding to that defender's AC. (However, magic that gives a "deflection" bonus would add to the defender's AC, not to his DR.)

Leather: DR 2
Studded Leather: DR 3
Chain Shirt: DR 4
Chainmail: DR 5
Splintmail: DR 6
Half-Plate: DR 7
Full Plate: DR 8

This is a straight-forward implementation.

By the same rule, any AC bonus given by a creature's natural armor would become that creature's DR; and any "armor" bonus given by magic, such as the Mage Armor spell or a Ring of Protection, would become the user's DR. (However, the "deflection" bonus given by magic such as a Shield of Faith spell would be added to the defender's AC, not to his DR.)

The main problem with this method is this: Unless you increase the base damages of all weapons, combatants will have much difficulty getting damage past each other's armor DRs. Granted, attackers with the Power Attack feat can overcome this difficulty; and since defenders without armor bonuses to their ACs will be a lot easier "to hit", attackers can better afford to take attack penalties in order to recieve bonuses to their damage. But, really, this method makes the Power Attack feat practically a must-have.

Method #2: The "armor" bonus is halved, and this becomes the defender's DR, instead of adding to that defender's AC.

Leather: DR 1
Studded Leather: DR 2 / 1
Chain Shirt: DR 3 / 1
Chainmail: DR 3 / 2
Splintmail: 3
Half-Plate: DR 4 / 3
Full Plate: DR 4

This implementation is not so straight-forward.

Not all bonuses for armor divide evenly in half, and you certainly don't want to round them down, because doing so would nerf many of the armors. So, what you have to do is this: Give some armors two, separate DRs. The first DR is for use against slashing attacks; the second, for use against piercing and bludgeoning attacks. (If the damage type of an attack is questionable, then the first DR is used.)

By the same rule, any AC bonus given by a creature's natural armor would be halved, and that would become the creature's DR; and any "armor" bonus given by magic, such as the Mage Armor spell or a Ring of Protection, would be halved, and that would become the user's DR. (However, magic that gives a "deflection" bonus would be directly added to the defender's AC, without halving. It would not affect his DR.)

With this method, you'd probably want to make Power Attack incur a -2 penalty for each +1 damage bonus, for two reasons: 1.) DRs are not that high, compared to method #1, yet defenders still don't get bonuses from their armor to their ACs; thus they are easier "to hit", and attackers can afford bigger penalties. 2.) Since 2 points of armor bonus translates into 1 point of DR, the attack penalty for the damage bonus should also translate that way.

So, which of these two methods would you choose for implementing armor DR rules?

Also, any observations or constructive criticisms on these two methods would be welcome.

 

[Wolf72]

interesting (sorry, that's all I got )

for my house rules I only have heavy armor a DR, and 1 at that (well full plate got DR 2).

of the two you presented, I like the second one better (1/2 AC rating)

 

[willpax]

I don't wish to be obtuse or uncooperative, but there are other options (which, in my campaign, would be closer to B and A).

You could have armor give both a deflection and absoprtion bonus, which you can fiddle with the balance out the various armors. I generally have light armor give +1 DR, medium +2 DR, and heavy armors 3 DR. The deflection bonuses (wich add to AC) are generally half what they were originally.

As an additional complication, you might also consider using defense bonuses (a la Star Wars or Wheel of Time) if you plan on allowing very high BAB and magic-enhanced attacks.

 

[Azlan]

You could have armor give both a deflection and absoprtion bonus, which you can fiddle with the balance out the various armors.

Been there. Done that. What we ended up with, is this: The modified ACs of characters in heavy armor were only one or two points less than the modified ACs of characters in light armor, yet the former were getting a good deal more DR from their armor than the latter. (Actually, we no longer use the term "armor class" or "AC", but replaced it with the term "defense class" or simply "defense".)

So, to make the implementation of armor DR truly meaningful, we decided to devise a method where defenders in light armor or none would have high defense classes (due to their high Dex bonuses and to feats such as Dodge and Parry), but with low DRs; and defender in heavy armor would have low defense classes (due to the max Dex bonuses incurred by their armor), but with high DRs. Thus, the former are hard to hit, but can't take much damage, while the latter are easy to hit, but can soak up lots of damage.

 

[Angcuru]

I've been considering using such a system for my game, but I've had quite a time finding a good one.

If you take all physical AC bonuses as DR, combat will be an endless hack-fest, in which non-warriors go down in the first 3 rounds and the rest of the combat is extended indefinetely, since you'll only really get a CHANCE to drop your foe if you get a crit or whip out power attacks. Shield would still prevent attacks from getting through tho, not provide DR.

HALVING the physical AC bonuses makes armor less over-powered, and adds realism in that the average Joe won't be able to touch a full-plate-wearing dude while he's only got a dagger. This system seems good, except for the # 1/2 armors. I don't know what you'd do about that. However, I don't advise going with the different AC's and DR's vs. different damage types.

I like your idea for power attack concerning the second method, tho.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I recommend going with option (A) but with one important additional proviso:

The base DR of armour is DR/+1 (or DR/magic in 3.5e I guess). Magic armour gives a better DR bonus, so +3 chain would give DR 5/+4

Critters just have a basic DR/+1 from their natural armour unless they also have DR in the normal way, in which case you up the value needed to penetrate their DR appropriately.

An additional option you might wish to consider is to allow "Targetted shots" (usable by anyone, no feat required) which allows you to take a penalty to hit of up to your BAB, and add it to damage. Power attack is still useful, since you can double the amount you shift over, but it no longer becomes necessary.

Cheers

 

[Galadare]

The problem with converting armor to DR rather than AC is that it precipitates other changes. For it to work, you then have to adust other rules such as attack rolls and HP.

As far as the two rules presented go. I prefer the first as a simple matter of simplicity (when it comes into play). However, IMG the change would be accompanied by three other changes.

First, there is the problem of everything being too easy to hit. One solution I have contemplated is the conversion of a character's BAB and AC to skills and adjust the character's skills per level accordingly.

Second is the problem of super-resilient characters. For this I have been playing with the idea of decreasing the HP of the characters. Or, possibly even making it static with respect to character level.

The third change would be in the way magic works. With the HP totals of the characters so dramatically reduced, spells like fireball that deal multiple d whatever damage are way to powerful. This of course would lead to several other changes, minor and other wise.

The amount of work involved has kept me from making the change IMC as of yet. Furthermore, the change would steer the campaign away from hack and slash in favor of character development. Unless that is what you want to do, I would steer clear of the whole mess.

O'course, my solution is not the only possibility.

 

[willpax]

If you opt for a lower DR (say, maxing out at 3 for heavy armor), you could also have that apply per die of damage. This would mean that someone could be chipped away at slightly faster, but would also have superior protection against criticals and spells.

It also makes heavy armor incredibly good for specific situations--a 9 DR versus an arrow critical is a nice thing indeed (as one of my players discovered recently--I use a VP/WP system that multiplies crit damage and applies it to WP, so surviving critical hits is a major concern).

 

[VirtualWizard]

I use option #1, but I also give the combatants a defense score equal to 13 + BAB + DEX mod. Why a base 13? I like combats to last longer Also, I use a step chart for weapon damage ("d2" for each +1) and weapon damage is open ended. An example:

3rd Level Fighter with STR 14 and DEX 12 wearing a breastplate and large shield and weilding a longsword.

Defense = 17 (13 base, +3 BAB, + 1 DEX)
Damage Reduction = 7 (+5 breastplate, +2 large shield)
Longsword damage = 1d12 (1d8 longsword base, +2 steps for +2 STR mod.)

If this fighter hits in combat and rolls a 12 on the damage die, he may roll another d12 and add the result to the previous roll.

If this fighter had STR 16, the damage for the longsword would be 1d8 + 1d6 and both dice are open ended.

Any questions?

 

[Azlan]

First, there is the problem of everything being too easy to hit. One solution I have contemplated is the conversion of a character's BAB and AC to skills and adjust the character's skills per level accordingly.

We have several ways to deal with this...

1. The Dodge feat gives a +2 dodge bonus to your defense class if you're wearing light armor or none, or a +1 dodge bonus to your defense class if you're wearing medium armor. The Dodge feat gives no bonus if you're wearing heavy armor.

2. Parry (a new feat): With a melee weapon, you can take a number as a penalty to your attack rolls with that weapon, and add that same number as a deflection bonus to your defense class against other melee weapons. The penalty to your attack rolls and the bonus to your defense class last until your next turn. The deflection bonus given by a parrying weapon cannot stack with other deflection bonuses, including that given by a shield. This feat cannot be used while you're flat-footed or otherwise denied your Dex bonus. If wielding two weapons, you can use your secondary weapon to parry with, thereby taking the attack penalty to that weapon instead of your primary.

3. Block (a new feat): You increase the deflection bonus of your shield by 1 against melee weapons, or by 2 against missile weapons. You cannot use this feat while flat-footed or otherwise denied your Dex bonus.

4. Since your attack bonuses do indeed tend to be rather high in comparison to the defense classes of your opponents, you can afford to fight defensively more often, taking a -4 attack penalty but giving yourself a +2 dodge bonus to your defense class. (Of course, if you have the Expertise feat or the Parry feat, it's more efficient for you to use those instead.)

5. Against an opponent in heavy armor, you may find yourself needing to take stiff attack penalties to increase your damage (via the Power Attack feat), in order to penetrate your opponents' armor DR.

All in all, it balances out, without the need for automatically increasing a combatant's defense class as he gains in levels.

To demonstrate, let's imagine a swashbuckler. He's a 5th level fighter. His Str is 12; his Dex, 16; and he uses Weapon Finesse with a +1 rapier, which he has Weapon Specialization with. His attack bonus with that rapier is +10; his damage, d6+4. He's wearing the ubiquitous chain shirt, with a buckler. He has the Dodge and Parry feats. His armor DR is 4. (We're using method #1, here.) His defense class is 14 (+3 Dex, +1 buckler).

The swashbuckler's opponent is a knight, who's also a 5th level fighter. The knight is wearing full plate armor. His Str is 16 and his Dex, 12. He wields a +1 greatsword, which he has Weapon Specialization with. His attack bonus with that greatsword is +10; his damage, d12+6. His armor DR is 8. His defense class is 11 (+1 Dex).

The swashbuckler and the knight square off.

The swashbuckler uses his Dodge feat, which increases his defense class to 16. Using his Parry feat, he takes a -4 attack penalty, increasing his defense class to 20. That leaves him with a +6 attack bonus versus the knight's defense class of 11, which is a good chance for hitting (80%). Problem is, even if the swashbuckler does hit, with his d6+4 damage he's going to have difficulty getting much if any damage past the knight's armor DR 8.

The knight has a +10 attack bonus versus the swashbuckler's defense class of 20, which is only a fair chance for hitting (55%). But if the knight does hit, with his d12+6 damage he's easily going to get a decent amount of damage past the swashbuckler's armor DR 4.

Really, a swashbuckler with a rapier should be at a severe disadvantage against a knight in full plate armor. (This is not the case with D&D, by-the-book.) With rules for armor DR in place, the only chance the swashbuckler has for inflicting a decent amount of damage is if he scores a critical; in which case, he rolls 2d6+8 damage versus the knight's armor DR 8.

Second is the problem of super-resilient characters. For this I have been playing with the idea of decreasing the HP of the characters. Or, possibly even making it static with respect to character level... With the HP totals of the characters so dramatically reduced, spells like fireball that deal multipled whatever damage are way too powerful. This of course would lead to several other changes, minor and other wise.

It's not necessary to tinker with hit points for characters (which would also lead to tinkering with hit points for monsters; as well as making spells like Fireball too powerful, as you stated).

Instead, make criticals more frequent. You can do this by simply increasing the threat ranges of all attacks by 2. So, the threat range with a longsword would become 17-20. Upon scoring a critical, the damage would be rolled twice (with modifiers), and the opponent's armor DR would be subtracted from that total.

(BTW: With these more frequent criticals, the Improved Critical feat and the Keen enchantment should further increase a weapon's threat range by 2, rather than doubling it.)

Increased frequency for criticals would greatly help mitigate things, keeping combat from dragging out due to high armor DRs.