D&D 3E/3.5 Which race "got the shaft" in 3.5

[Shin Okada]

The only real problem I see with Half-Orcs (besides their penalties, which are simply too high) is, that Wood Elves and similar +2 Str +0 LA races are usually totally superior.

Bye
Thanee

I don't think wood elf to be "superior". Low con is a biiiiiiiig disadvangtage for any type of characters. Racial Dexterity bonus is not that much important when making a melee character focused on high strength. There always be maximun dex bonus to AC thing. There is no "maximum strength bonus" or "maximum constitution bonus".

 

[Cyberhawk]

I have to admit it is amazing to see how the Humans and Elves have reversed from 2.0 to 3.0/3.5. It used to be Humans were the lowest of the low as far as character races (in all of my groups humans were only taken if you wanted to be a druid...elves and half-elves non-surprisingly dominated).

Now in my groups I see Humans everywhere. The extra-feat seems to lure everybody to them. Although I have a fair sprinkling of Gnomes and Halflings (and one Elf from a brand-new player).

 

[Shin Okada]

That's what goggles of night are for.

Halfling is a pretty good race IME also, tho the new Whisper Gnomes totally outclass them as rogues.

Bye
Thanee

Goggles of Night costs 12,000 gp and the existence of this item does not make lower leveled halfling rogue into a practical scout. And when thinking about higher level, this item is sharing precious slot for Eyes of the Eagles, another very popular item for rogue/ranger types.

And, in my experience, rogue must commit melee fight or just become "security machine" or something. In 3.0e and 3.5e, they are meant to flank the opponent. And small flanker sucks. They are slow. And most of the special attacks favor high-strength big creatures. I have actually seen many halfling combatants (most are rogues of some sort) died because of their small size and low strength. Swallowed, constricted, tripped/disarmed in the middle of opponents and such.

I love halfling. My first and the second PC in chromatic D&D were halflings. But 3e/3.5e halflings need some boost. I have been surprised much when I read 3.5e and found that dwarf was enpowered and halfling was not.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, the small size is a disadvantage in melee for sure.

But so far I havn't seen any real problems with them in play. We currently have a halfling paladin in our group, who is doing fine, and there have been gnome wizards and halfling rogues before.

You just need to know where your limits are and small size does offer quite a few nice bonuses also.

Bye
Thanee

 

[LeapingShark]

If we're judging solely on "crunch", Half-Elf by far. They absolutely suck compared to the others.

I fall into the group that thinks half-orcs are well balanced, even leaning towards powerful. The strength bonus is equivalent to having 50 Weapon Focus feats, and 50 Weapon Specializations (though at half-caliber), plus all the associated carrying advantages, etc. I'll take that for the extra -2 on some stat that is not likely to be used by that particular race very often. The Darkvision is icing on the beefcake, so to speak.

 

[ForceUser]

A friend and I had a discussion about how humans are pretty sub-optimal. He claimed that humans seem weaker than the other races. And further, that this was somewhat reflected in the Living Grayhawk RPGA games where he saw very few human full-BAB types.

Thoughts?

I left out 1/2 elves as well, they really do seem to be the worst by far.

Your friend is on crack. Humans are one of the more powerful races. With their bonus feat and skill points they are the powergamer's wet dream. The race that got the shaft was elves. They were the most popular race in 2E, and now nobody plays them in our games.

Why? Well, since hit points is king in 3.XE, any race with -2 Con is automatically disadvantaged. Plus, the traditional elf abilities, which pretty much carried straight over from previous editions, just don't seem as cool as what dwarves, humans and halflings have these days.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think that half-elves are weakest, closely followed by half-orcs. This is fine with me, frankly; it discourages players from taking races which should, by all rights, be rare.

I'll claim that humans are the strongest race, but with a caveat: I've dropped the dwarven WF with the dwarven waraxe, which never really made sense with me.

Halflings are one of the stronger races, I think; +3 attack bonus with thrown weapons makes them excellent knife-throwers, and their size helps them as wizards and sorcerers (who don't care about the loss of Str).

Edit: Here's the rough racial breakdown I've seen in my games:

65% human
15% halfling
10% elf
5% dwarf
5% other

 

[ForceUser]

I think that half-elves are weakest, closely followed by half-orcs.

I don't agree that half-orcs are weak. Any race with +2 Str makes an excellent melee character.

 

[Shin Okada]

Thanee,

Actually, one of my player has played a halfling wizard for about 2 years. But I am saying halfling to be not that good for a wizard as I have seen many cases when the combination of slow speed and the lack of low-light/dark vision has prevented him from casting spells.

And, even if a player knows that his halfling is a very weak grappler, that knowledge does not help him when a big purple worm emerges from earth. And, a halfling paladin cannot just run from a tiger when his job is to fight monsters in melee and protect party spell casters.

CRGreathouse,

Small size also harms wizards and sorcerers a little bit. The combination of low-strength and small carrying capacity is a big problem. For example, if you put 8 to strength when making a halfling wizard with point-buy, now his carrying capacity is only 15 lbs for light load (str 6 and small). Now, until he buys a HHH or a bag of holding, a travelling wizard must seriously worry about the total weight of his gears. This is worse for a Halfling rogue ...

I still think a Gnome Wizard is very good choice. But I cannot find much advantage on choosing Halfling for a Wizard.

 

[ForceUser]

I still think a Gnome Wizard is very good choice. But I cannot find much advantage on choosing Halfling for a Wizard.

Higher Dex means higher base & touch AC and higher chance of hitting with a ranged touch attack. That's worth as much as a gnome's higher Con.