D&D 3E/3.5 Which race "got the shaft" in 3.5

[Shin Okada]

Higher Dex means higher base & touch AC and higher chance of hitting with a ranged touch attack. That's worth as much as a gnome's higher Con.

I don't think so.

Basically, in 3.0e and 3.5e, spell casters should better use save or die (or incapacitate) spells instead of damaging spells. Dealing damage is the job of melee combatants.

And it is somewhat hard to make a wizard type which mainly use touch attack spells. To be really effective, they need really high Dex and Precise Shot feat (thus must spend 2 feats).

And, slightly high AC does not help much as arcane casters have far lower AC anyway. If a monster can hit the party fighter in significant percentage, it surely hits the wizard if it can reach. On the other hand, high con = HP. Which is effective against any damaging things (attacks, spells, special attacks, traps and such). And con is the key ability for concentration, one of the most important skill for an arcane caster.

 

[Klaus]

Hey, if Strength was overrated, no fighter would ever put more than a 14 in Strength (using PB), to avoid diminishing returns.

And noone would ever pick up Weapon Focus and Specialization for the measily +1/+2 bonus.

That stuff racks up and one +1 here, one +1 there, makes quite a difference over time.

The only real problem I see with Half-Orcs (besides their penalties, which are simply too high) is, that Wood Elves and similar +2 Str +0 LA races are usually totally superior.

Bye
Thanee

I'm not saying that +2 Str (+1 melee attacks/damage, more carrying capacity) isn't good for melee types. It's just not inherently better than +2 Dex (+1 AC/ranged attacks/Reflex/Hide/Move Silently/Tumble), +2 Con (+1 hp per level/Fort), +2 Int (1 extra skill at max ranks, +1 on all Knowledge and Spellcraft checks, *), +2 Wis (+1 Will/Heal/Spot/Listen/Sense Motive) or +2 Cha (Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy/Turning).

I specially think +2 Str = +2 Int. One extra skill at max ranks can make a huge difference (just ask that fighter with one skill! ).

 

[Blue]

Fromt he games I'm in and running, which run the gamut from 1st level to pre-epic, here's what I've seen. Most are a good mix of combat, RP, and mix from towns to dungeons to whatever. The games I'm in one is a fairly optimized crowd in a high-magic FR, others are a bit more laid back as is the game I run.

No Half-orcs. Ever.

No Half-elves except for a single cohort, and that was for RP reasons.

One halfling, a dagger thrower/2nd tank. (Go figure.) He rocks, and is above the power level.

Two gnomes, (one mounted wizard, or combat rogue), and while the race is unpopular, these seemed to be on the power curve.

Two elves. One wizardly and one of the most powerful, and one ranger/rogue in a low level game that's our most effective combatant.

Several dwarves, all of them clerics with some non-clerical martial levels. Definitely on or slightly above the power curve.

Too many humans to count. Feat helps low level, feat and favor class helps early (and often) access to PrCs, skill points always help especially the varied environment. Also, the humans hit just about every class.

So I can't say "absolute power", too many factors, but I can say with my experience with several groups of people that Half-Orcs and Half-Elves seem to be the least popular. Least popular doesn't mean weakest, it means it isn't one of the strongest and therefore picked often. Halflings and gnomes I would say also fall into this category int he games I play, leaving human the most numberous followed by dwarves.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

 

[Thanee]

I'm not saying that +2 Str isn't good for melee types. It's just not inherently better than +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis or +2 Cha.

That's where I disagree somewhat.

Str is the most important attribute for (pretty standard) melee types, closely followed by Con.

Bonuses to attack and damage are inherently better than bonuses to anything else for meleers, because that's what they need the most (closesly followed by hit points).

Dex is only important for some meleers, but the AC bonus can be gained from armor as well.

From the mental stats, only Wis is really important, as it covers their biggest weakness, and Int is nice for skills and some feat chains (Trip!).

But none of those carry as much weight as Str for the meleer.

There must be a reason, that most barbarians and fighters (other than those finesse types) choose Str as their highest attribute!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

And it is somewhat hard to make a wizard type which mainly use touch attack spells. To be really effective, they need really high Dex and Precise Shot feat (thus must spend 2 feats).

My sorceress uses ranged touch attacks quite a bit (mostly Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray). She has a very good Dex (her second highest stat, it's 20 now with gloves), but none of the archery feats and it works pretty well.

As a halfling (she's human) she would have better saves and two higher attack bonus, but would lose the bonus feat (which is worth as much as the save bonus roughly, if you use the FR subraces, you can even have the bonus feat like the human instead of the save bonuses!) and some skill points (would gain some weaker skill bonuses in exchange). The small size would be no real hindrance, as she cannot escape a grapple or trip attempt anyways, but would offer some more advantages (better hide, and AC).

I really don't think a halfling would have been a bad choice here, altho I wanted to play a human, therefore I went that way.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Victim]

One thing that might be skewing your friend's opinion is that he's refering to Living Greyhawk stuff. Under small point buy amounts, racial bonuses to stats are huge. Human or half elf characters probably won't be able to afford an 18 without significant sacrfices. A non-human essentially has up to four more points with point buy, assuming they put a high score in racial bonus stat, and don't want above 12 in a penalty stat.

Half Elves are the weakest, in my opinion. Their social skill bonus is certainly better than before though. Next weakest are probably elves. A Con penalty really sucks, especially with the lower HD classes. A word of warning: don't play an 8 Con wizard or sorcerer. Con is better than Dex, IMHO.

Dwarves are generally the best, followed by humans.

 

[Teslacoil1138]

Higher Dex means higher base & touch AC and higher chance of hitting with a ranged touch attack. That's worth as much as a gnome's higher Con.

Nope. The Dex vs Con for casters argument has been brought up a lot on different boards. Con almost invariably wins. Especially in a mage duel where Dex means next to nothing (well, maybe against Evokers). Higher hit points means a heck of a lot, not to mention a higher Concentration skill. That's why dwarves are considered one of the more powerful races.

On a similar note, I find it funny that in a mage duel, a dwarven wizard will probably win against an elf wizard of the same caliber. Given the dwarf's relative +2 HP a level and +2 saves vs spells, he easily outclasses the elf.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Humans are easily one of the best races.
Best Races:
1) Dwarf
2) Human
3) Halfling
4) Gnome
5) Elf
6) Half ork (I give both half human races extra skill points like humans IMC, which balances them out IMO which puts them above elves)
7) Half elf

While strength is very important for melee types and archers who want to deal good damage, constitution is important for all character classes, strenght isn't.
I've considered in my game getting rid of an elfs constitution penalty altogether and see how it works out, I haven't seen any elves for a while in my games so maybe it'd encourage people.

 

[argo]

And, slightly high AC does not help much as arcane casters have far lower AC anyway. If a monster can hit the party fighter in significant percentage, it surely hits the wizard if it can reach. On the other hand, high con = HP. Which is effective against any damaging things (attacks, spells, special attacks, traps and such). And con is the key ability for concentration, one of the most important skill for an arcane caster.

While I absouetly agree that Con is an important stat for everyone I think you are giving it too much credit in this case. d4 HD classes have crap for hit points end of story, that extra +2 Con aint gonna change anything. The same way that a monster which can hit the Ftr is almost guaranteed to hit the Wiz if he breaks through then if that monster can drop the Ftr in 2 or 3 rounds of full attack he can sure as heck drop the Wiz in 1. OTOH if your defensive strategy as a Wiz is to keep mage armor, shield, blur, etc up and running then you might just get lucky and survive that first round facing the monster which then buys you the chance to flee or hope that a party member comes to save you; and if that is your plan then the +2 Dex is better. On the same note the Halfling +1 to saves might just be enough to help your Wiz make a Ref for 1/2 save and live, wheras a Wiz who blows a Ref save against a fireball designed to threaten the party fighter will likely be toast regardless of what his Con is.

Though I will admit low light vision is very attractive for casters. Scor one for gnome there.

All in all I think halfling and gnome are tied as far as racial strength goes. Halflings are better Rog (even without the low-light vision) and gnomes are better Wiz, but that shouldn't suprise anyone as that is what the races were designed to be. But it isn't fair to write off the so easily, a +2 Con isn't the be-all end-all of everything.

Later.

 

[Thanee]

I haven't seen any elves for a while ...

Sidenote: I've recently seen a PbP starting (not playing there myself), where all five characters were elves or half-elves (and that was not a theme or anything, where it would be obvious).

Bye
Thanee