D&D 3E/3.5 Which race "got the shaft" in 3.5

[Ridley's Cohort]

Humans are very attractive at low and low-mid levels because that extra feat is a big help if you are trying to build a killer combo. For a die-hard minmaxer that usually makes human the best choice for interesting specialized characters -- well-worth the loss of a grabbag of bennies.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I agree with your analysis, Guilt Puppy.

The Half-Elf has a very reasonable deal if you are playing for a broad range of abilities. It is an excellent choice for a Druid, Ranger, Bard, Rogue, or weird skillpoint-strong multiclass. Those little bonuses add up to good effect if you build a character who plans on using all those skills.

Half-Orcs are just fine...if you get excited about hitting things and hitting things and hitting things. I do love tactical combat, but I personally cannot get excited about average damage per round over style considerations.

Halflings have a bit of the Half-Orcs over focus problem. But they are superior Rogues so apologies are necessary It is not unusual to see the halfling Rogue with one of the better ACs in the party, so they are not terribly delicate in the hands of a savvy player. From a powergaming perspective, if you are neither a Rogue nor planning on going Outrider, there is no mechanical reason to not be a gnome.

 

[Shin Okada]

I still think Halflings are not superior Rogues. Don't be fooled by the favored class.

In typical adventure, the basic role of rogues are, detector, flanker & scout.

*Detector
Halfling has +2 bonus to hearing. So maybe slightly better than Human to notice/find something. But all the other races have either low-light or Dark vision and this is a big difference. Gnome also has listen bonus and thus simply better than halfling. Elves are simply better as they also have bonuses to spot and search, and has the ability to find secret door. Even Half-elf is better than halfling as they have +1 each of bonuses to listen/search/spot. And, though there is no bonuses to listen/search/spot, dwarven rogue is a superior trap detecter, thanks to stone cunning (remember this not just grant auto search roll but also grant +2 search bonus in stone dungeon).

*Flanker
Yes. Weapon-finessed halfling has the best attack bonus and AC (though rogues must wait till the 3rd level to take this feat). And small damage dice and low strength are not that much problematic as the majority of damages are coming from sneak attack dice. But halfling has 2 big disadvantage as a flanking fighter. First, they are slow. This makes them hard to get into flanking position. Second, small melee combatant sucks against various special attacks including disarm, trip and GRAPPLING. Improved grab is one of the most popular and the most fearful special attacks.

*Scout
As already said, halfling is not particularly good at detecting things. And the lack of low-light vision or darkvison make them not a good scout in a dungeon or at night. They are surely good at hiding. And slightly good at moving silently. But those bonuses never compensate the lack of low-light/darkvision. Also, being a slow race, they take more time to scout a certain distance.

And when making a halfling rogue with point-buy, if you put the lowest number to it's strength, now you will find it is somewhat hard to keep it in light load ....

 

[Shin Okada]

Yeah, but in the case of the smaller hit die the precentages don't matter nearly as much as the actual HP. A Wiz 10 with Con 10 has an average of 22HP, with a Con 12 he has an average of 32HP. Thats nearly 50% more but guess what? Neither of them will last two rounds in melee (and probably not even one). When you have a d4 HD your HP exist only to give you half a chance of surviving the occasional area effect attack or trap the rogue missed. Your defensive strategy in battle has to focus on not getting hit at all because if you do I guarantee you are toast regardless of your Con.

The difference between 22 HP and 32 HP still makes a big difference. For example, a fire giant's greatsword causes 3d6+15 damage, 25.5 damage in average. When a 22 HP character falls with one swing, a 32 HP character remain concious. This will not be a big difference when the giant make a full-attack but they must first move and attack, thus the first round = one attack.

I tend to agree with you that a mage must try not to be hit at all. But spells and area attacks still harm a wizard. And +1 HP per hit die is far more reliable than +1 AC and +1 reflex save (or +2 in case of halfling). Not all the spells/area attacks involve attack roll or reflex save.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Funny. I play arcane casters almost exclusively and it's been my experience that, barring exotic races with bonuses to the casting stat, halflings make the very BEST arcane casters.

Because, given reasonable precautions (+CON boosting items, spells like False Life, companions to hide behind) HP really isn't so much of a limiting factor as INITIATIVE.

(And also some of the bread-and-butter measures of arcane power DO in fact use attack rolls: Enervation, Disintegration, etc)

 

[Shin Okada]

Because, given reasonable precautions (+CON boosting items, spells like False Life, companions to hide behind) HP really isn't so much of a limiting factor as INITIATIVE.

While taking initiative at the first round of a combat is a good thing, having +1 bonus on a d20 roll does not change the chance that much. And after the second round, initiative is not that much important.

The combination of slow speed and normal vision is bad. Which cannot be compenseted just by +1 initiative bonus. Even if a halfling rolls a high initiative, that's nothing if he cannot see the target or if he cannot move to the position from where he can see the targtet because of his slow speed.

And, +2 bonus to ranged touch spells are easily cancelled by the fact that a hafling wizard cannot target something which wizards of other races can target. Or, by the fact that a halfling must often shoot through a cover when a taller, faster (in speed) wizard need not. That gives the target a +4 AC.

 

[Shadowdweller]

While taking initiative at the first round of a combat is a good thing, having +1 bonus on a d20 roll does not change the chance that much. And after the second round, initiative is not that much important.

It means quite a bit when one's life is at stake. Especially when one factors in that a +1 to initiative means more than a mere 5% probability of going first because ties are won by the creature/entity with the higher overall bonus.

The combination of slow speed and normal vision is bad. Which cannot be compenseted just by +1 initiative bonus.

Which can be quite easily overcome by mundane objects, minor magical items, and low-level, lasting spells.

 

[Shin Okada]

It means quite a bit when one's life is at stake. Especially when one factors in that a +1 to initiative means more than a mere 5% probability of going first because ties are won by the creature/entity with the higher overall bonus.

It may depend on how many creatures, in average, you meat in each encounter. And if a DM rolls initiative for opponents at once, or not. In our play group, we often run encounters against multiple oppnents, instead of one big creature. And often they are not just a bunch of the same creatures, but a mixed group. So we roll initiatives for each one. Even when the opponents are a bunch of same creatures, say, 12 Ogres, we avoid to roll the initiative at once. After we have realized that rolling only one initiative for entire opponent group is often too dangerous for PCs (because all the creatures attack at once before the next PC reacts), we tend to roll initiative for each opponent creatures, or, say, one roll per 2-3 opponents. This makes hard for a high initiative characters to "act before all the opponents".

Which can be quite easily overcome by mundane objects, minor magical items, and low-level, lasting spells.

While Longstrider and Darkvision are both lower-level spells which lasts in hours we canntot use them 24 hours a day (or all the time while walking in a dungeon) at lower level. And IMHO the balance in lower level is more important. I don't consider them to be "quite easily". And even with longstrider, the original base speed should better be faster.

 

[Klaus]

That's where I disagree somewhat.

Str is the most important attribute for (pretty standard) melee types, closely followed by Con.

Bonuses to attack and damage are inherently better than bonuses to anything else for meleers, because that's what they need the most (closesly followed by hit points).

Dex is only important for some meleers, but the AC bonus can be gained from armor as well.

From the mental stats, only Wis is really important, as it covers their biggest weakness, and Int is nice for skills and some feat chains (Trip!).

But none of those carry as much weight as Str for the meleer.

There must be a reason, that most barbarians and fighters (other than those finesse types) choose Str as their highest attribute!

Bye
Thanee

Sorry, Thanee, I think you misunderstood me.

Str *is* the most important stat for melee-oriented characters. I'm just saying that Str (and Dex and Con) is not inherently more important than Int or Wis or Cha (for the respective archetypes that make use of those attributes, and to others in a lesser extent). The half-orc's "+2 Str/-2 Int/-2 Cha" and its rationale that "Str outclasses Int or Cha" is overkill.

If you are building a melee type, of course you'd want *at least* 14 in Str (more if you're going tank-route). You can build a very good melee type/sneaky type/spellcaster using an elf or dwarf. But you don't have that flexibility with half-orcs. That's why I say that half-orcs got the shaft.

 

[Carpe DM]

Hmm.

I'll say humans are the strongest, half-elves the weakest. YVMV.

The synergies created by a closely-crafted character progression are far more valuable than any two-point ability increase. It has been a long time since I have been able to fully maximize a character progression without the extra feat and skill points of humans.

Moreover, the feat progression means that Humans finish feat chains 3 levels before their nonhuman counterparts. This is a systematic advantage all through the game, and one that redounds massively to humans' benefit. It increases survivability, contribution, and class power.

So, in short: Dwarves may get an extra two points in Con, but they lose the ability to be a quadruple-class, triple prestige-class munchkin monstrosity.

Half-elves, on the other hand, are a disaster, unless you're specifically looking to try out a Diplomat Smackdown. I thought Gnomes were tied to Bard: the Half-Elves' vaunted flexibility comes down to mean exactly zero, and I have yet to see a half-elf of any other class perform to the top of the game.

best,

Carpe