D&D 3.x Which race "got the shaft" in 3.5

[Aust Diamondew]

It may not be a core PC race but...

Drow -- your SR no longer protects you from almost an entire school of magic (with the notable exception of healing spells!), thus leaving you and your already penalized constitution fully vulernable to Cloudkill. Darkness as a spell-like ability isn't worth nearly so much any more. And proficiency with a hand-crossbow is commonplace for rogues these days iirc. But you've still got the light-blindness (which deep gnomes, also coming from a low-light race, don't) and are still generally reviled by most other sentient races. Who have wizards and sorcerors that know Cloudkill. All that for the same +2 ECL you had back when SR was consistently worth something!

Cheers,
::Kaze

Thats why in my game drow are only +1 ECL.

 

[Shin Okada]

For your informal poll, I'd rank Half-Elf as the weakest, followed by half orc. Str is the easiest stat to raise, and weakens the +2 bonus that the raise gets. By raise, I mean have a higher score through a template, class abilities, etc, not just equipment.

Why Str is the easiest stat to raise? All the stats have enhancing spells and equipments. All of them are in the same level or the same cost.

And IMHO that is the stats used most oftenly. Thus, the most important stats.



Ridley's Cohort,

It is true that a wizard tend to have smaller amount of hp than a cleric. But a cleric must be near from the front line to heal his/her friends. On the other hand, in average, a wizard may keep more distance from enemies.

Anyway, it does not mean that having bad hp is a good thing for a cleric. And if a cleric want to double as combat cleric, the total amount of HP become more important.

And I do say BOTH wizrd and cleric should not have low con. That is why I do not evaluate Elven races (including wood elf and such) as that much better races, especially for classes which use smaller HD types.



Half-Elf is the only core race which has low-light vision, no penalty on con, and speed of 30. I can never say this race to be "the weakest".

 

[Thanee]

So your DM does not concentrate attacks and damaging spells on cleric?

Well, first they do not know that the archer is a Cleric (how should they?), then there are likely two PCs in melee with them at the same time, which can be probably targeted a lot easier. Also, Clerics enjoy among the best protections against unfriendly spells, so cool, let them waste them on the Cleric, who just shrugs them off.

And archery-style Clerics don't need to cast so many spells in combat, that way they have plenty to heal the party afterwards, which certainly is one of their primary jobs. They are not as good at throwing up a heal spell during combat, as are Clerics who focus more on melee combat, of course, though depending on the situation, they can just keep within 30 feet and then move in, if needed, while the tank-fighters make sure, that the opponents are kept within close combat range.

In my understanding, the primal job of a cleric is to survive and cast spells (or turn undeads).

That depends fully on the concept. Some Clerics only use their turn attempts to fuel those nice Divine feats to turn themselves into combat monstrosities.

And even the -1 to turning checks the Dwarf gets doesn't make them bad at turning undead. It still works fine for them. Any other race (bar the Half-Orc, of course) can turn undead the same.

Whether that is good or bad, is another topic, of course, but it's certainly highly effective.



Anyways, this topic is more about race than class, I was just saying, that this particular character concept does very nicely complement with the elven race, which is certainly the best choice in this case for the reasons outlined above. When you said, Half-Elves make very good Clerics, you surely had a particular Cleric-concept in mind, which is prominent in your games, but it doesn't have to in other games. Clerics work in a surprising amount of different ways.

I also think, that Elves make particularily good Arcane Tricksters for similar reasons (most of their racial advantages coming into play). Halflings and as usual Humans also tend to be good for this.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shin Okada]

Thanee,

Bat an archery cleric cannot be the first-class shooter as they have lower BAB than full-BAB classes and fewer archery feats than Fighters or Rangers.

Power-Gaming wise, basically, each character should better do something he can do at first-class every turn. So archery type cleric is, while maybe interesting concept, not a power gaming type character.

Of course, slight numerical ineffectiveness can be justified by "concept". Still I like the concept of Halfling Fighter or Halfling Wizard. But this thread is for arguing about game-mechanic-wise effectiveness, isn't it?

 

[Shin Okada]

I have one question

I think, Half-Orc is, at least one of the best race for Barbarian types (including some multi-classed ones). And I am feeling that is enough to justify their stats. This is also a general concensus amongst all the Japanese D&D DMs and players I personally know. I have one question to those who think Half-Orc to be a weak race? Why do you think so?

a) Simply because they have lower ability score total.
b) Because they are only good for Barbarian types.
c) They are not even a good race for Barbarian types.
d) Non of the above 3. (Please describe)

 

[Li Shenron]

b) Because they are only good for Barbarian types.

Yep.

Also a) in a way is very unfair. One may say that Str is more important than other stats for the average D&D character, but it could as well be close to zero for many casters. There's no reason why h-orcs should have a net -2 in ability scores.

 

[shilsen]

Thanee,

Bat an archery cleric cannot be the first-class shooter as they have lower BAB than full-BAB classes and fewer archery feats than Fighters or Rangers.

Power-Gaming wise, basically, each character should better do something he can do at first-class every turn. So archery type cleric is, while maybe interesting concept, not a power gaming type character.

Of course, slight numerical ineffectiveness can be justified by "concept". Still I like the concept of Halfling Fighter or Halfling Wizard. But this thread is for arguing about game-mechanic-wise effectiveness, isn't it?

I'd say that their access to spells (Divine Power, for example, takes care of the BAB issue), especially higher level ones, allows cleric archers to more than hold their own against ranger and fighter archers. And that's only considering attack and damage issues. When you throw in the fact that the cleric also has healing ability, turning ability, and everything else that their spells provide, I'd say the cleric archer is a better powergaming concept than a fighter or ranger archer.

 

[Shin Okada]

Shilsen,

Unless most of the battle starts when you kick the door and your DM always allow you to spend at least 1 turn to cast spells before the battle starts, Divine Power never remove BAB problem. Spending precious first turn of a battle for raising BAB is not a good trick (especially when many people are claiming that taking initiative is so important. Though I don't value initiative modifier that high).

And that is a 4th level spell. Something lower-to-med level cleric cannot enjoy in every battle for a day.

Also, power gaming wise, a bunch of Jack of all trade is not as effective as a well-organized party composed of specialists.

 

[Thanee]

No, you do not always have that one round, but if you do, even a single spell (Divine Power) is enough to put you into the realm of the fighter, two spells and you are ahead in fighting power already. Not every combat starts at 5 feet (actually very few do), and while the fighters move, you can cast your spells, as you have the range to not need to close with the enemy, and even if you need, you still have a move action to do so with every round of spellcasting.

And for the times, where you don't have the time, you throw up a quickened Divine Favor and are good to go as well.

We don't even want to dive into the mess you can create with Divine Metamagic and Quicken/Persistent Spell (yes, it costs quite some turn attempts, but a 24h Divine Power is pretty damn powerful also).

That concept works incredibly well in practice, at least in my experience (having played an elven archery-focused rogue/cleric (only 2 rogue levels) up to 14th level, that character was... well... brutal (and didn't even have to resort to Persistant Spell cheesiness); and she got her share of being primary target and more than a share of dispels thrown into her direction, too. This was in 3.0 however, in 3.5 I only had a similar NPC running with the party for a while, and while the more broken stuff has been toned down by now (stacked GMWs, bracers of archery, etc), they are still very capable to keep up with fighters, tho they do not push them into the second row anymore, which is a good thing, but they are everything but weak; I still think, that in 3.5 elven archer clerics are a force to be reckonned with, this concept totally plays towards the strengths of the elven race).

Re: Half-Orc: Yes, I think the main problem with them is, that they are rather limited in terms of character concepts. They don't lack in power (literally ), but rather in diversity. I think the mental disadvantages are ok, tho, I'd just give them something else to compensate for their quite heavy disadvantages. Some skill bonuses come to mind.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shin Okada]

Thanee,

But if a character is a cleric and has time and resource to cast 4th-level spells (or 8th level slot for quickened one), that character would better cast a more effective spell. A Spell can damage the opponent more, or make it helpless, or enhance the attack/defense capacity of entire party. That is much more effective. And regarding buffing, it is much better to enhance it's friends than to enhance cleric it self.

Regarding limited concept. That is the way of demihuman isn't it? Half-Orc is at least very good at the area of melee fighting and not so good at other fields. Think about Elf. They may be good in the field of Archery or Rogue arts but not so good at other fields. And also, even as archers or rogues, low con penalizing them. Think about Gnomes. They can be good spell casters but cannot enter the field of good melee/ranged attackers. And small size and low speed may still kill them.

And look those poor halflings. Not good at any fields.